Discussion:
Will the real hawk please stand down? NYT's Singer implies the American electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
(too old to reply)
lo yeeOn
2016-10-21 06:46:33 UTC
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Raw Message
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.

Reckless Hillary has too much personal grudge to work out to give
peace a chance.

And sadly, that's the nature of America's immediate future!

lo yeeOn

The Hawk on Russia Policy? Hillary Clinton, Not Donald Trump
By DAVID E. SANGER OCT. 20, 2016
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/hillary-clinton-david-sanger-putin-russia.html

WASHINGTON - Hillary Clinton made it abundantly clear Wednesday night
that if she defeats Donald J. Trump next month she will enter the
White House with the most contentious relationship with Russia of any
president in more than three decades, and with a visceral, personal
animus toward Vladimir V. Putin, its leader.

"We haven't seen a you-can't-trust-these-guys tone like this since the
days of Ronald Reagan," said Stephen Sestanovich, who served in
President Bill Clinton's State Department and is the author of
"Maximalist: America in the World from Truman to Obama". "But even
that was more a systemic criticism of the Soviet Union. This is
focused on Putin himself."

In a reversal of political roles, Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic
candidate, is the one portraying Mr. Putin as America's newest
archenemy, whose underlings hack into her Brooklyn campaign
headquarters, bomb Syrian civilians and threaten Ukraine and NATO
allies in Europe. For a woman who presented a big red "reset" button
to her Russian counterpart in March 2009 (with the word incorrectly
translated into Russian), the change in tone was more striking than
ever in her debate with Donald J. Trump.

She, and the Obama White House, insist they were on the right course
until Mr. Putin decided he had more to gain from reviving Cold War
tensions than from a quarter-century effort to integrate with the
West. Now, much of the Democratic foreign policy establishment has
become as hawkish as Mrs. Clinton on the subject of Russia, a view
that seems almost certain to outlast the campaign.

Privately, some of her longtime advisers are already thinking about
what mix of sanctions, diplomatic isolation and international
condemnation they might put together if they take office to deal with
Mr. Putin and the fragile economic state he runs, an update of the
"containment" strategy that George F. Kennan formulated for President
Harry S. Truman in 1947.

Equally surprising is the Republican reversal of tone. Only four years
ago, it was the Republican presidential nominee, Mitt Romney, who was
warning of the dangers of a revanchist Russia and President Obama who
said "the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back,"
noting that "the Cold War's been over for 20 years".

Most of the Republican Party remains firmly distrustful of Russia. But
not Mr. Trump, its standard-bearer. "If the United States got along
with Russia, wouldn't be so bad," he said Wednesday, uttering not a
word about Mr. Putin's land grabs.

. . .

For days, hacked emails from the Gmail account of John D. Podesta,
Mrs. Clinton's campaign chairman, have embarrassed her campaign, and
on Thursday, emails from an account Mr. Obama had during his 2008
transition surfaced for the first time. No one knows if the hacking
campaign is winding down or whether the revelations so far are simply
a prelude to something bigger between now and Election Day.

Mr. Obama is considering retaliation that, according to several senior
officials, could include attacks inside Russia that could expose
corruption among the leadership and embarrass Mr. Putin. It is not
clear whether Mr. Obama will choose that route, even after Vice
President Joseph R. Biden Jr. issued a threat last weekend that
Mr. Putin could get some of his own medicine.

But it is clear that if Mrs. Clinton wins, she will enter the White
House with a very personal grudge against Mr. Putin. He, in turn, has
long harbored a grudge against her for her statements in 2011 calling
into question the validity of a Russian parliamentary election.

It is possible, Mr. Sestanovich warned, that Mrs. Clinton and the
Obama administration are seeing Mr. Putin's direct hand in too many
events. He questioned how the director of national intelligence, James
R. Clapper Jr., would know for certain that the Kremlin leadership was
behind the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and the emails
of Mr. Podesta and Colin L. Powell, one of Mrs. Clinton's predecessors
as secretary of state. The United States has released none of its
evidence, so it is unclear if the conclusion was based on an educated
guess about Kremlin operations, an "implant" in Russian networks, or a
human spy or communications intercept. [Or a fabrication from the
government!]

About James R. Clapper Jr.:

Wyden: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or
hundreds of millions of Americans?

Clapper: No sir.

Wyden: It does not?

Clapper: Not wittingly. There are cases where they could,
inadvertently collect, perhaps but not wittingly.

This was a lie. Many people believed it was a lie at the time, but
that was confirmed thanks to the documents leaked by Ed Snowden, who
later claimed that seeing that bit of testimony helped convince him
that he needed to go through with his plan to leak this information.

James Clapper, of course, is the Director of National Intelligence,
and the heads of the various intelligence agencies basically report
in to him. He's still in that job, which many people argue is a
complete travesty. He flat out lied to Congress and got away with
it.

What's been really odd is that the story as to why Clapper lied
seems to keep changing.
TT
2016-10-21 14:46:52 UTC
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Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
*skriptis
2016-10-21 15:13:49 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
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Nusrat Rizvi
2016-10-24 08:01:04 UTC
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:13:49 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
A megalomaniac has taken over Russia, a land that has made no progress
in the last 200 years. This nut job aka Valid Putin is interested in
enlarging Russia and cares little if older Russians are forced to make
a choice between buying food or medicine.
The economy unable to cope with the burden of military spending causes
the value of Ruble to drop everyday. It now stands close to 65 Rubles
to a US Dollar.
He has seen fit to get involved in Syria where majority of its citizen
have been driven out and the major city Aleppo is described by the UN
as a slaughterhouse.
To keep US at bay, Putin now brandishes his nuclear weapons and warns
the Americans of serious consequences if they got involved,
militarily.
*skriptis
2016-10-24 09:26:31 UTC
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Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:13:49 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
A megalomaniac has taken over Russia, a land that has made no progress
in the last 200 years. This nut job aka Valid Putin is interested in
enlarging Russia and cares little if older Russians are forced to make
a choice between buying food or medicine.
The economy unable to cope with the burden of military spending causes
the value of Ruble to drop everyday. It now stands close to 65 Rubles
to a US Dollar.
He has seen fit to get involved in Syria where majority of its citizen
have been driven out and the major city Aleppo is described by the UN
as a slaughterhouse.
To keep US at bay, Putin now brandishes his nuclear weapons and warns
the Americans of serious consequences if they got involved,
militarily.
Stupid post. I mean very stupid post. Russia made no progress in
the last 200 years?

I don't know which country you're from, but I guess if Russians
decided to stop supplying international space station, your
country will jump in? Flying to space, piece of cake.


And I am especially amused when I see various non Russians caring
so much about the living standard of the Russians. It's so
touching to see people like yourself, loving Russian people more
than Vladimir Putin.

FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care, like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.

But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
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TT
2016-10-24 21:47:08 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care,
Just like Russia didn't care about Cuba...
Post by *skriptis
like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.
I hear Russian TV is reporting Yemen a lot...
And the PM offered military bases for Russia.
Post by *skriptis
But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
Syria is too close to Russia? On which map...
--
"He did touch my vagina through my underwear"
*skriptis
2016-10-24 22:03:46 UTC
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Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care,
Just like Russia didn't care about Cuba...
What does Russia does with Cuba?

By Cuba you mean in the 1960s?

You mean when USA installed nukes in Turkey targeting Moscow and
then when USSR did the same on Cuba targeting Washington and we
had "Cuban missile crisis"?

Good one.
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.
I hear Russian TV is reporting Yemen a lot...
And the PM offered military bases for Russia.
Post by *skriptis
But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
Syria is too close to Russia? On which map...
It's very close.
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Nusrat Rizvi
2016-10-28 03:44:33 UTC
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:26:31 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:13:49 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
A megalomaniac has taken over Russia, a land that has made no progress
in the last 200 years. This nut job aka Valid Putin is interested in
enlarging Russia and cares little if older Russians are forced to make
a choice between buying food or medicine.
The economy unable to cope with the burden of military spending causes
the value of Ruble to drop everyday. It now stands close to 65 Rubles
to a US Dollar.
He has seen fit to get involved in Syria where majority of its citizen
have been driven out and the major city Aleppo is described by the UN
as a slaughterhouse.
To keep US at bay, Putin now brandishes his nuclear weapons and warns
the Americans of serious consequences if they got involved,
militarily.
Stupidpost. I mean very stupid post. Russia made no progress in
the last 200 years?
Sure it has a few show case cities but by an large it has no industry
it has no economy and it is by far one of the poorest country in
Europe. Overwhelming majority does not have indoor plumbing or
electricity. Longevity and population is dropping at an alarming rate.
PS. Putin cares of Russian people just as much as Hitler cared for
Germans.
I don't know which country you're from, but I guess if Russians
decided to stop supplying international space station, your
country will jump in? Flying to space, piece of cake.
And I am especially amused when I see various non Russians caring
so much about the living standard of the Russians. It's so
touching to see people like yourself, loving Russian people more
than Vladimir Putin.
FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care, like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.
But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
Rubel still keep falling against US Dollars, or do you still deny is.
Last I heard it was 63 to a US Dollars, some economy?
TT
2016-10-28 18:28:51 UTC
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Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Putin cares of Russian people just as much as Hitler cared for
Germans.
That should be obvious... Putin even rose to power by false flag
operation against his own countrymen, he bombed Russian buildings and
blamed the Chechens...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#Ryazan_incident
--
"He did touch my vagina through my underwear"
*skriptis
2016-10-30 00:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by TT
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Putin cares of Russian people just as much as Hitler cared for
Germans.
That should be obvious... Putin even rose to power by false flag
operation against his own countrymen, he bombed Russian buildings and
blamed the Chechens...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#Ryazan_incident
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
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*skriptis
2016-10-30 00:23:18 UTC
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Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:26:31 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:13:49 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
A megalomaniac has taken over Russia, a land that has made no progress
in the last 200 years. This nut job aka Valid Putin is interested in
enlarging Russia and cares little if older Russians are forced to make
a choice between buying food or medicine.
The economy unable to cope with the burden of military spending causes
the value of Ruble to drop everyday. It now stands close to 65 Rubles
to a US Dollar.
He has seen fit to get involved in Syria where majority of its citizen
have been driven out and the major city Aleppo is described by the UN
as a slaughterhouse.
To keep US at bay, Putin now brandishes his nuclear weapons and warns
the Americans of serious consequences if they got involved,
militarily.
Stupidpost. I mean very stupid post. Russia made no progress in
the last 200 years?
Sure it has a few show case cities but by an large it has no industry
it has no economy and it is by far one of the poorest country in
Europe. Overwhelming majority does not have indoor plumbing or
electricity.
Well 60% of the world don't have it. And 1.6 million Americans. I
just googled it, there are various data on that issue, but these
are the most pessimistic figures. Russians are certainly
somewhere in between.

If you were smarter and less malicious you'd know the source of
this problem at least in Russia. Communists confiscated luxury
and bourgeois apartments and turned them into couple of smaller
ones to provide accommodation for working class. That means the
original bathrooms in most cases were shared by few families
living in apartments that used to be one. So it's not about not
having a indoor plumbing, or not washing yourself, but rather
about not having your own. That phenomena is most typical for St
Petersburg because that city was the pre-revolutionary centre of
aristocracy, elites, etc, whose apartments were converted.


http://rbth.com/society/2015/01/05/in_it_together_how_communal_apa
rtments_shaped_the_outlook_of_generati_41877.html


Now that we've solved toilets, Russians, who have no industry if
we were to believe you, together with the Americans of course,
are the only ones who can end all human life on Earth or send
humans to space or park an icebreaker on the north pole.
Considering all that I'd be:
a) more respectful
b) reexamine my news provider if I were you. They obviously feed
you with bullshit.




Longevity and population is dropping at an alarming rate.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
PS. Putin cares of Russian people just as much as Hitler cared for
Germans.
Or like I do for posters on rst like yourself? The ones posting
outright lies.

Do you really think it's the slightest problem for anyone to
google stuff like life expectancy for any country in the world?
You think you are fooling anyone by lying?
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I don't know which country you're from, but I guess if Russians
decided to stop supplying international space station, your
country will jump in? Flying to space, piece of cake.
And I am especially amused when I see various non Russians caring
so much about the living standard of the Russians. It's so
touching to see people like yourself, loving Russian people more
than Vladimir Putin.
FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care, like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.
But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
Rubel still keep falling against US Dollars, or do you still deny is.
Last I heard it was 63 to a US Dollars, some economy?
Who cares about that. Only bankers and they're not appreciated
anymore. It's the 2016 you fool.
--
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Nusrat Rizvi
2016-10-30 14:21:40 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 02:23:18 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:26:31 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:13:49 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And that is exactly what?
A megalomaniac has taken over Russia, a land that has made no progress
in the last 200 years. This nut job aka Valid Putin is interested in
enlarging Russia and cares little if older Russians are forced to make
a choice between buying food or medicine.
The economy unable to cope with the burden of military spending causes
the value of Ruble to drop everyday. It now stands close to 65 Rubles
to a US Dollar.
He has seen fit to get involved in Syria where majority of its citizen
have been driven out and the major city Aleppo is described by the UN
as a slaughterhouse.
To keep US at bay, Putin now brandishes his nuclear weapons and warns
the Americans of serious consequences if they got involved,
militarily.
Stupidpost. I mean very stupid post. Russia made no progress in
the last 200 years?
Sure it has a few show case cities but by an large it has no industry
it has no economy and it is by far one of the poorest country in
Europe. Overwhelming majority does not have indoor plumbing or
electricity.
Well 60% of the world don't have it. And 1.6 million Americans. I
just googled it, there are various data on that issue, but these
are the most pessimistic figures. Russians are certainly
somewhere in between.
We are not talking about the whole world but only Russia, which
remains far too backward when compared with any country in Western
Europe.
1.2 Million American without plumbing is nothing compared with the
other 380 millions who have all the creature comforts poor Russians
can only dream of. BTW, the 1.6 millions are folks who live in
hinterland far away from civilized world of modern convinces, like
schools, hospitals, road etc. But such is there choice.
Post by *skriptis
If you were smarter and less malicious you'd know the source of
this problem at least in Russia. Communists confiscated luxury
and bourgeois apartments and turned them into couple of smaller
ones to provide accommodation for working class. That means the
original bathrooms in most cases were shared by few families
living in apartments that used to be one. So it's not about not
having a indoor plumbing, or not washing yourself, but rather
about not having your own. That phenomena is most typical for St
Petersburg because that city was the pre-revolutionary centre of
aristocracy, elites, etc, whose apartments were converted.
http://rbth.com/society/2015/01/05/in_it_together_how_communal_apa
rtments_shaped_the_outlook_of_generati_41877.html
Now that we've solved toilets, Russians, who have no industry if
we were to believe you, together with the Americans of course,
are the only ones who can end all human life on Earth or send
humans to space or park an icebreaker on the north pole.
a) more respectful
b) reexamine my news provider if I were you. They obviously feed
you with bullshit.
If a nation uses all its resources on building weapons even nuclear
devices, that does not show signs of modernity. Look at impoverished
Pakistan or North Korea, both are now members of nuclear club.
Post by *skriptis
Longevity and population is dropping at an alarming rate.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
PS. Putin cares of Russian people just as much as Hitler cared for
Germans.
Or like I do for posters on rst like yourself? The ones posting
outright lies.
Do you really think it's the slightest problem for anyone to
google stuff like life expectancy for any country in the world?
You think you are fooling anyone by lying?
In this department US is close behind Japan, and if you remove the
black citizens, it may yet be higher. Russia is not doing well here,
and as I mentioned the older Russian are suffering the most.
Post by *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
I don't know which country you're from, but I guess if Russians
decided to stop supplying international space station, your
country will jump in? Flying to space, piece of cake.
Better to show the world you are most advance country even when the
whole world know you have no economy.
Post by *skriptis
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
And I am especially amused when I see various non Russians caring
so much about the living standard of the Russians. It's so
touching to see people like yourself, loving Russian people more
than Vladimir Putin.
FYI if USA were supporting jihadists in Mexico be sure Putin
wouldn't care, like he doesn't care what's going out in Yemen
right now where Saudi Arabia is conducting aggression against a
sovereign state.
But a jihadists playground and stateless territory that would
emerge after secular Syria is destroyed, like it happened with
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya is something that's too close and too
dangerous for Russia so it won't be allowed.
Rubel still keep falling against US Dollars, or do you still deny is.
Last I heard it was 63 to a US Dollars, some economy?
Who cares about that. Only bankers and they're not appreciated
anymore. It's the 2016 you fool.
This argument beats all others, blame your failures on the bankers. At
least for now you can tell the Russian why they are so poor, cause the
Russians have drained their treasury fighting the Islamic Terrorists
even when they were fighting local tyrants like Hafiz Al Assad and his
kin,
PaxPerPoten
2016-10-22 00:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And just what is Russia doing? Protecting its borders against a NATO Threat?
Backing up its ally in Syria and the Long term Russian Military bases
there. Obama has been the aggressor to make himself another Stolen Valor
Hero like John Kerry. War kills people... No discrimination.. You could
be one of the victims of this stupidity.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
TT
2016-10-22 13:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And just what is Russia doing? Protecting its borders against a NATO Threat?
No country is forced to join NATO. Apart of course Russia forcing them
to with its expansionist politics.
Post by PaxPerPoten
Backing up its ally in Syria and the Long term Russian Military bases
there.
Yes, Russia is bombing civilians and flooding the world with refugees
because of its military interests. Not to mention that refugee crisis
fits Kremlin's goals perfectly.
Post by PaxPerPoten
Obama has been the aggressor to make himself another Stolen Valor
Hero like John Kerry.
Kerry is not a war hero?
Post by PaxPerPoten
War kills people... No discrimination.. You could
be one of the victims of this stupidity.
You forgot invasion of Ukraine and blatant meddling with US elections.
Latter is direct attack against US democracy.
--
"He did touch my vagina through my underwear"
*skriptis
2016-10-22 14:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by TT
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
And why wouldn't Russia and USA be on collision course after what Russia
is doing?
And just what is Russia doing? Protecting its borders against a NATO Threat?
No country is forced to join NATO. Apart of course Russia forcing them
to with its expansionist politics.
You can't be this dumb. You must be trolling.

FYI, NATO is not a debating club, or economic union. It's an
anti-russian military alliance.

Why the western and Anglophone countries like Australia who share
all the values, aren't part of it?
Because they're far from Russia and aren't needed there.

NATO started as anti-soviet alliance, or rather to say it was
presented as such. Even Russians believed that it was anti-Soviet
so when the Soviet union collapsed, they requested to join NATO
to build new security infrastructure with the western countries,
but they got denied and when the NATO started to spread ever
closer to Russia even on post Soviet states, they finally
understood the real purpose of NATO alliance. It was always
anti-Russian, all the talks about ideology or anti-communism was
empty talk.

So basically, by joining NATO, country declares itself to be enemy
of Russia. It's maybe shocking to you, but those are the facts.
West had tried couple of total invasions on Russia in the past,
Napoleon, Hitler, they were all big alliances, so Russians will
certainly make sure it's never possible again, just like Israeli
doctrine is never to allow holocaust again.

So, clearly, it's rather hypocritical to be surprised with the
Russian negative stance of NATO encircling them. It's not that
you can do "whatever you like" if you're a neighbouring country
to Russia. You just can't say, "hey I'll deploy some of the US
missiles on my territory, or host few tank brigades" and expect
nothing to happen. Or, to be so dumb and be surprised when Russia
reacts in some way.
Post by TT
Post by PaxPerPoten
Backing up its ally in Syria and the Long term Russian Military bases
there.
Yes, Russia is bombing civilians and flooding the world with refugees
because of its military interests. Not to mention that refugee crisis
fits Kremlin's goals perfectly.
Syrian war is ongoing since 2011. The whole thing started in the
first place with the west arming, funding and supporting
terrorists to wage war and conduct terror in a relatively stable
and normal country. US had Tsarnaev brothers in a Boston. Imagine
having thousands of those in your country, with them receiving
arms and money from foreign powers. That's what is done in Syria
by the west.

It's not an isolated case. Neocons have already caused extreme
misery, death and destruction in Afganistan, Iraq and Libya.


The refugees flooded Europe by the end of summer 2015.

In autumn 2015 Putin made his UN speech, told Americans what kind
of mess they did, and joined the Syrian civil war at the request
of legitimate Syrian government.



You should get your dates set right.
Post by TT
Post by PaxPerPoten
Obama has been the aggressor to make himself another Stolen Valor
Hero like John Kerry.
Kerry is not a war hero?
Post by PaxPerPoten
War kills people... No discrimination.. You could
be one of the victims of this stupidity.
You forgot invasion of Ukraine and blatant meddling with US elections.
Latter is direct attack against US democracy.
Talking about meddling with the elections. Neocons orchestrated
overthrow of a legitimate and democratically elected president of
Ukraine. Just like that, to install anti Russian regime there.

I repeat, not just legitimate ruler, like Assad, but
democratically elected as well, in fair election, the fact
recognized by whole Europe and the world at the time.


You got to be smoking some serious shit if you thought Russia is
going to just watch that.

And btw for this there is plenty of evidence. No evidence
whatsoever that Russia supported Trump. Why would they do
that?

Because a New Yorker Donald Trump, born and raised in the USA, who
became billionaire there, is actually a Russian puppet?

Good one.
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Whisper
2016-10-22 15:30:09 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
Because a New Yorker Donald Trump, born and raised in the USA, who
became billionaire there, is actually a Russian puppet?
Good one.
You need to keep in mind most voters are of very low intelligence &
actually believe all these 'sexual abuse' claims because it's in the media.

The establishment don't get to stay in power for so long while fucking
everyone up the arse if most people are above say 70 IQ points. They've
worked out a scam where they can stay in power as long as they want &
just pull out these retarded stories at election time that lesser folk
swallow hook line & sinker no problems. It's encouraging that Trump
still has a very high following though - means people are getting
smarter & ignore the machine spin. Still plenty of dummies out there
who will vote Clinton, but not as much as in the old days when people
were less enlightened.
TT
2016-10-22 16:03:12 UTC
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Post by Whisper
The establishment don't get to stay in power for so long while fucking
everyone up the arse if most people are above say 70 IQ points.
98% of population have IQ over 70.

That's why Clinton is the next president.
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TT
2016-10-22 15:56:46 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
So basically, by joining NATO, country declares itself to be enemy
of Russia.
Actually countries are joining NATO because Russia is a threat to them.
It's about sovereignty.

Besides, Ukraine wasn't joining NATO but wanted to join EU.
Post by *skriptis
West had tried couple of total invasions on Russia in the past,
Napoleon, Hitler
Napoleon and Hitler didn't attack only Russia...
Post by *skriptis
so Russians will
certainly make sure it's never possible again,
Putin is not trying to avoid next Napoleon/Hitler - don't you see that
Putin IS the next Napoleon/Hitler... it's he who is invading European
sovereign nations.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by PaxPerPoten
Backing up its ally in Syria and the Long term Russian Military bases
there.
Yes, Russia is bombing civilians and flooding the world with refugees
because of its military interests. Not to mention that refugee crisis
fits Kremlin's goals perfectly.
Syrian war is ongoing since 2011. The whole thing started in the
first place with the west arming, funding and supporting
terrorists to wage war and conduct terror in a relatively stable
and normal country.
Wrong.

Assad killed his people with gas.
Post by *skriptis
It's not an isolated case. Neocons have already caused extreme
misery, death and destruction in Afganistan
Actually Russia started the Afghan war.
Post by *skriptis
Talking about meddling with the elections. Neocons orchestrated
overthrow of a legitimate and democratically elected president of
Ukraine. Just like that, to install anti Russian regime there.
That's simply not true.

Have a potato.
Post by *skriptis
No evidence
whatsoever that Russia supported Trump.
Except that Kremlin is behind the hacks all of which are against Clinton
and democrats. Pretty damn obvious.
Post by *skriptis
Why would they do
that?
This has been discussed previously, here and in free media.

Have a potato.
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*skriptis
2016-10-24 09:51:11 UTC
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Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
So basically, by joining NATO, country declares itself to be enemy
of Russia.
Actually countries are joining NATO because Russia is a threat to them.
It's about sovereignty.
Besides, Ukraine wasn't joining NATO but wanted to join EU.
This is very rude. Lying so much. Ukraine ie their legitimate and
democratically elected leadership REFUSED to start process of
joining EU claiming it was a bad deal for them. (For various
reasons it is)
Eastern parts of Ukraine are completely integrated with Russia
economically and joining EU ie breaking those links would would
literally kill those areas. On the other hand, western parts do
want to join EU.
Ukraine itself is split cca fifty-fifty on Europe-Russia issue, so
for them it made most sense to avoid aligning with either side
for the foreseeable future. Their leadership decided just that.


And isn't that how democracy works? Legitimate government makes
decisions. If you don't like it, you wait til next election, and
change your county's path by voting for different parties.


But no, after their decision, armed rebellion started which
resulted in a CIA orchestrated coup, overthrow of a legitimate
president and installment of a gang regime with the task of
pursuing rigid antirussuan policy.

Some of those eastern parts of Ukraine would have nothing with it.
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
West had tried couple of total invasions on Russia in the past,
Napoleon, Hitler
Napoleon and Hitler didn't attack only Russia...
So you'd make Russians feel comfortable with the fact that NATO
too attacked other countries eg Libya? You're such a fun person.
;)
Post by TT
Wrong.
Assad killed his people with gas.
Have you seen anyone killed?
Links?
And please not from "SOHO", Syrian observatory for human rights,
that's an office in central London with couple of geeks paid to
spread propaganda.
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
It's not an isolated case. Neocons have already caused extreme
misery, death and destruction in Afganistan
Actually Russia started the Afghan war.
???
My God you're lost entirely.
Post by TT
That's simply not true.
Have a potato.
This has been discussed previously, here and in free media.
Have a potato.
The more potatoes I see, the harder I've crushed your lies.
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TT
2016-10-24 21:17:07 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
So basically, by joining NATO, country declares itself to be enemy
of Russia.
Actually countries are joining NATO because Russia is a threat to them.
It's about sovereignty.
Besides, Ukraine wasn't joining NATO but wanted to join EU.
This is very rude. Lying so much. Ukraine ie their legitimate and
democratically elected leadership REFUSED to start process of
joining EU claiming it was a bad deal for them. (For various
reasons it is)
Yes, Yanukovich, Putin's puppet, did not want the EU. People protested
against that after which Yanu ordered protesters to be shot by special
forces - who now are hiding in Russia...

Not much different from Syria and Afghanistan really, as in both
occasions Russia backed evil government against its people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
Post by *skriptis
Ukraine itself is split cca fifty-fifty on Europe-Russia issue,
lol. no.
Post by *skriptis
And isn't that how democracy works?
Puppet presidents, rigged elections, protester shooting and invading
other country is not democracy...
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Napoleon and Hitler didn't attack only Russia...
So you'd make Russians feel comfortable with the fact that NATO
too attacked other countries eg Libya? You're such a fun person.
;)
Point was that they didn't target Russia, it wasn't a conspiracy against
Russia.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Assad killed his people with gas.
Have you seen anyone killed?
Links?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
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*skriptis
2016-10-24 22:42:38 UTC
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Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
So basically, by joining NATO, country declares itself to be enemy
of Russia.
Actually countries are joining NATO because Russia is a threat to them.
It's about sovereignty.
Besides, Ukraine wasn't joining NATO but wanted to join EU.
This is very rude. Lying so much. Ukraine ie their legitimate and
democratically elected leadership REFUSED to start process of
joining EU claiming it was a bad deal for them. (For various
reasons it is)
Yes, Yanukovich, Putin's puppet, did not want the EU. People protested
against that after which Yanu ordered protesters to be shot by special
forces - who now are hiding in Russia...
After 2004 orange revolution, which was also a coup of its kind,
but never mind that now, the pro European parties were in charge.
They led the country.

In the election in 2010 with them in power, an election they
organized and lost, how could have yanukovich steal those
election?

It's like claiming Trump could steal the election in USA. That's
really really dumb thing to say.

So yanukovich won, was recognized as a legitimate leader by whole
of Europe and that makes him responsible for policy making. Those
who disagreed with him could have waited another election. But
the whole point of a CIA coup is in the fact that yanukovich
wouldn't have lost even the next election. That's why the coup
was needed.

And this pro-Russian tag on yanukovich is kinda wrong. I'd say in
his policies he was totally, or trying to be totally moderate,
balancing between both Russia and Europe realizing Ukraine itself
is a split society, with different feelings and future goals. The
economy on the west is based on agriculture while the base on the
east is industrial and complmentary to Russia dating to Soviet
times. He was aware of internal differences.
He's pro-Russian only when you compare him to illegal russophobic
gang now in charge, that's true.

And yes, he was corrupt but all of them are. Current president is
a billionaire.
Post by TT
Not much different from Syria and Afghanistan really, as in both
occasions Russia backed evil government against its people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
Good example to hang yourself with.
Enough to say that Soviets, logically, being ideologically driven,
supported communists in that war.
Americans supported Osama bin Laden jihadists. I don't think they
supported the ones who shared their values.
We've seen later Osama bin Laden.
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
Ukraine itself is split cca fifty-fifty on Europe-Russia issue,
lol. no.
I won't reply to you anymore. This statement is like saying Nadal
is not naturally right handed. It's an utterly bizarre lie.
Post by TT
Point was that they didn't target Russia, it wasn't a conspiracy against
Russia.
It's no conspiracy. If we're neighbours and I put cannon on my
window targeting your bedroom, it's an act of aggression.
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Assad killed his people with gas.
Have you seen anyone killed?
Links?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
And have you red even the beginning of the article, rough description?
Perpetrators - unknown

Even wiki doesn't know, but you do, ha?
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TT
2016-10-24 23:46:50 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
And this pro-Russian tag on yanukovich is kinda wrong.
Yet he's currently taking a bubble bath in Putin's villa.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
Good example to hang yourself with.
Enough to say that Soviets, logically, being ideologically driven,
supported communists in that war.
Yes. And that government was evil.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
Ukraine itself is split cca fifty-fifty on Europe-Russia issue,
lol. no.
I won't reply to you anymore.
No potatoes then.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Point was that they didn't target Russia, it wasn't a conspiracy against
Russia.
It's no conspiracy. If we're neighbours and I put cannon on my
window targeting your bedroom, it's an act of aggression.
What these countries are doing by joining NATO is covering their windows
since Putin is pointing cannons all over the neighbourhood.
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Post by *skriptis
Post by TT
Assad killed his people with gas.
Have you seen anyone killed?
Links?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
And have you red even the beginning of the article, rough description?
Perpetrators - unknown
Even wiki doesn't know, but you do, ha?
UN and free world & arabs say it's Assad. Putin thinks it's false flag
operation and they gassed themselves... well, Putin says lots of things
foreign to reality.
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TT
2016-11-02 12:04:32 UTC
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Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
Can you prove us that you are Chinese and not a Russian troll?

Samantha Bee btw did interesting insert on paid Russki trolls...
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*skriptis
2016-11-02 14:19:43 UTC
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Post by TT
Post by lo yeeOn
If you believe in David Singer's analysis, then the American
electorate is voting for a collision course between Hillary - the next
White House occupant - and Russia's Putin.
Can you prove us that you are Chinese and not a Russian troll?
Samantha Bee btw did interesting insert on paid Russki trolls...
Trolls post for fun. Those you describe are called journalists.
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