Discussion:
Torture Manual Found in Iraq
(too old to reply)
j***@hotmail.com
2007-05-26 20:33:18 UTC
Permalink
From:
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/05/torture-manual-found-in-iraq.html

US forces in Anbar province uncovered a Sunni torture house, and freed
17 prisoners, including a 13 year old boy who had been beaten and
tortured with electrocution. A torture manual was also found, pictures
and video here (images are disturbing).

When searching for more information on this report, I did a Yahoo!
search on "torture manual found in iraq", I came up with over 525,000
hits. Incredibly, over 90% of these links were to web sites listing
the abuses of prisoners at Abu Gharayb or criticising alleged CIA
torture techniques. Very little of it had to do with insurgent
torture, or by anyone else other than the United States.
[This manual] shows how to use drills to torture people, sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes and electrocute people, among other tactics
The manual is made up of very graphic illustrations of men under
torture. No Arabic writing; presumably it was meant for distribution
to people who may not speak Arabic or are illiterate (as about 59% of
Iraqis cannot read). I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes or and electrocute people?
[On the former prisoner there were] deep pocks, apparently from
electric shock burns, were gouged in his skin. The shocks, he said,
felt "like my soul is being ripped out of my body." But when he would
start to scream, and his body would pull up from the shock, they would
begin to beat him, he said.
There is a giant, quantum leap between using dogs to threaten
prisoners or waterboarding them (which hasn't even been proven) to
severing limbs or gouging out their eyes. I am not excusing any crimes
done to prisoners at the hands of US forces, but the fact that so much
attention was made to abuses done by a handful of idiot soldiers at
Abu Gharayb, while the real torture going on in Iraq gets so scant
attention, proves beyond a doubt how far this issue has been
politicized.

You might think that columnist Andrew Sullivan, who has made torture a
signature issue for him, might have something to say on this. Don't
hold your breath. Only US initiated torture is of any concern to him.

I also can't help wondering about the mindset of the person who made
these illustrations. Certainly he knew what they were for, and he
likely had participated in tortures himself. Does he believe that this
kind of torture, particularly of fellow Muslims, is acceptable in
Islam?
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
2007-05-26 21:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/05/torture-manual-found-in-iraq.html
US forces in Anbar province uncovered a Sunni torture house, and freed
17 prisoners, including a 13 year old boy who had been beaten and
tortured with electrocution. A torture manual was also found, pictures
and video here (images are disturbing).
When searching for more information on this report, I did a Yahoo!
search on "torture manual found in iraq", I came up with over 525,000
hits. Incredibly, over 90% of these links were to web sites listing
the abuses of prisoners at Abu Gharayb or criticising alleged CIA
torture techniques. Very little of it had to do with insurgent
torture, or by anyone else other than the United States.
I wouldn't be surprised if those Sunni torture people were working under us.
Think about it.
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
shogun
2007-05-28 12:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by j***@hotmail.com
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/05/torture-manual-found-in-i
raq.html
US forces in Anbar province uncovered a Sunni torture house, and
freed 17 prisoners, including a 13 year old boy who had been beaten
and tortured with electrocution. A torture manual was also found,
pictures and video here (images are disturbing).
When searching for more information on this report, I did a Yahoo!
search on "torture manual found in iraq", I came up with over 525,000
hits. Incredibly, over 90% of these links were to web sites listing
the abuses of prisoners at Abu Gharayb or criticising alleged CIA
torture techniques. Very little of it had to do with insurgent
torture, or by anyone else other than the United States.
I wouldn't be surprised if those Sunni torture people were working
under us. Think about it.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a blooming idiot. Think about it.
Randy Cox
2007-05-26 22:05:49 UTC
Permalink
<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message >
I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
Post by j***@hotmail.com
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes or and electrocute people?
I believe severing hands is a middle east institution. The US army used to
drag Indians behind horses until they died. The School of Americas taught
the South American dictators how to use extension cords to torture their
victims as they worked to quash land reforms in those countries. Look it
up!

Project Phoenix in Vietnam

Vietnam, 67-73 CIA developed Phoenix Program in 67 to neutralize: kill,
capture or make defect VCI. VCI means civilians suspected of supporting
communists. Targeted civilians not soldiers. Phoenix also called Phung Hoang
by VNese. Due process totally nonexistent. SVNese who appeared on black
lists could be tortured, detained for 2 years without trial or killed.
Valentine, D. (1990). The Phoenix Program, 13



School of the Americas:



"The [Salvadoran] death squads did exactly what they were supposed to do:
they decapitated the trade unions and mass organizations that seemed in
danger of setting off an urban insurrection at the beginning of the
decade... [The army] learnt its tricks at American counterinsurgency schools
in Panama and the United States. "We learnt from you," a death squad member
once told an American reporter, "we learnt from you the methods, like
blowtorches in the armpits, shots in the balls." And political prisoners
often insist they were tortured by foreigners, some Argentine, others maybe
American."





a US military training school, the School of the Americas, has trained many
of the worst human rights violators and dictators in various Latin American
countries.

Countries receiving training include Haiti, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Peru,
Colombia, Panama, El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala. The school is a
military training school originally in Panama, now in Georgia, USA, set up
and run by USA.

At the School of the Americas (SOA), portraits of the most successful
graduates are hung. Some of the worst dictators and human rights abusers in
the developing world have passed through the school's doors, including
people like Roberto D'Aubisson from El Salvador and Manuel Noriega of
Panama.

CIA trained the sha's henchmen which is why they hate us in Iran...not
because we are free. That is a liar's lie!

We trained Saddam and instigated a bloody war against Iran.

Now, we are almost certainly training Pakistan's dictator in the same black
arts that will be used against us in the next generation.

Americans responsible for this are those that only want to talk about the
torture of the other side and never take responsibility for our own actions
of torture.

Torture is a practise for losers. It only yields temporary results....long
term it builds righteous hate and results in a scientifically certain
opposite reaction.

I am against torture of any kind.



Randy R. Cox
j***@hotmail.com
2007-05-27 09:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
Post by j***@hotmail.com
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes or and electrocute people?
I believe severing hands is a middle east institution. The US army used to
drag Indians behind horses until they died. The School of Americas taught
the South American dictators how to use extension cords to torture their
victims as they worked to quash land reforms in those countries. Look it
up!
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.

JR

http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
alohacyberian
2007-05-27 09:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
Post by j***@hotmail.com
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes or and electrocute people?
I believe severing hands is a middle east institution. The US army used to
drag Indians behind horses until they died. The School of Americas taught
the South American dictators how to use extension cords to torture their
victims as they worked to quash land reforms in those countries. Look it
up!
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
JR
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
Mitchell Holman
2007-05-27 13:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by alohacyberian
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
Post by j***@hotmail.com
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever
hands, drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron
on skin, remove eyes or and electrocute people?
I believe severing hands is a middle east institution. The US army
used to drag Indians behind horses until they died. The School of
Americas taught the South American dictators how to use extension
cords to torture their victims as they worked to quash land reforms
in those countries. Look it up!
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
JR
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
Paul Newman is older than Iraq.
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-27 18:19:27 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Mitchell Holman
Post by alohacyberian
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
JR
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
Paul Newman is older than Iraq.
In fact wasnt Iraq created by the Brits and French when they carved up
arabia after WWI? The Us were busy expanding colonies in the Pacific and
central and south america at the time and were not really a world power. But
if they were around they no doubt would be in on the deal. Oh yeah thets
when they (the Brits) used WMD (poision gas) on the Kurds as well wasnt it?
Then they (the Brits) set up a puppet regime which they claimed was a
"democracy" and when the leader didnt do as they wanted they removed him and
put in another puppet which Saddam eventually replaced. Ironic isnt it?
j***@hotmail.com
2007-05-29 08:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by alohacyberian
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
No problem at all. In fact, even if I use the Saddam years only
compared to the entire history of the US, the sheer numbers of abuses
in Iraq would be higher. Torture and abuse happen sometimes in US
prisons, and sometimes we find out and prosecute the perpetrator. But
torture in Saddam's prisons was the rule, not the exception, and
nobody was prosecuted for it. I have spoken to plenty of former
inmates of the Saddam years myself.

JR
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-29 09:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by alohacyberian
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
No problem at all. In fact, even if I use the Saddam years only
compared to the entire history of the US, the sheer numbers of abuses
in Iraq would be higher.
That is a relativist argument.

Two wrongs do not make a right.
It isnt for the forces of law and order in the free world to behave as
terrorists and dictatorsd would.

the "we were not as bad as them" argument does not hold!
You should not be bad at all and condemn all torture slavery human rights
abuse and law breaking. Lynch law is not law at all.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
nobody was prosecuted for it. I have spoken to plenty of former
inmates of the Saddam years myself.
So what? Just because saddam was evil and killed a thousand prople dioesnt
justify anyone else killing even one person!
alohacyberian
2007-05-29 10:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by alohacyberian
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
No problem at all. In fact, even if I use the Saddam years only
compared to the entire history of the US, the sheer numbers of abuses
in Iraq would be higher. Torture and abuse happen sometimes in US
prisons, and sometimes we find out and prosecute the perpetrator. But
torture in Saddam's prisons was the rule, not the exception, and
nobody was prosecuted for it. I have spoken to plenty of former
inmates of the Saddam years myself.
JR
So you base your "facts" on what you see. let me guess, you
volunteered to kill iraqis....you're just an ignorant coward, no
better than saddam.
alohacyberian
2007-05-29 11:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by alohacyberian
Well JR, you're gonna have a problem proving that as Iraq has not been
a country for that long.
No problem at all. In fact, even if I use the Saddam years only
compared to the entire history of the US, the sheer numbers of abuses
in Iraq would be higher. Torture and abuse happen sometimes in US
prisons, and sometimes we find out and prosecute the perpetrator. But
torture in Saddam's prisons was the rule, not the exception, and
nobody was prosecuted for it. I have spoken to plenty of former
inmates of the Saddam years myself.
JR
sadam was put in power by the US....the root of all that is evil.
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-29 12:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by alohacyberian
JR
sadam was put in power by the US....the root of all that is evil.
You are over estamating the power of the US.
Saddam was assisted and supported by them but he was clever enough to
combine nationalism with marxism and manipulate the situation to bring about
his rise to power. He also executed exiled or imprisioned his rivals.

But calling the US the root of all evil is going way over the mark. THe Us
are not so nearly as infulencial or powerfull as that for starters. yes they
are probablt the most powerful military in the World but even given that
they cant even control a small country like Iraq. Also while the militarists
have had huge influence on US administrations many Americans have been
fooled by them or chose to remain ignorant of the rest of the world. But
many do now know the hogswatch they have been sold. Most Americans are like
most people anywhere else only they are richer.

THe ruling classed of the Us live a comfortable existance. It is unlikly
that someone with a drug addict brother a father never at home living in a
trailer park will ever get to the Presidencey but Clinton did just that!
Most of the senior politicians are from the billionaire class.
ToddP
2007-06-01 00:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
are probablt the most powerful military in the World but even given that
they cant even control a small country like Iraq.
Can't control it precisely because we've chosen to fight a war in a
"civilized" fashion. Ironically, if we chose to be as amoral as we're
being accused of being, we could have carpet bombed the country into
submission by now.
Post by Mavisbeacon
THe ruling classed of the Us live a comfortable existance. It is unlikly
that someone with a drug addict brother a father never at home living in a
trailer park will ever get to the Presidencey but Clinton did just that!
Most of the senior politicians are from the billionaire class.
Not sure what your point is here, but that is how capitalist societies
work. And frankly, I'm glad of it. Having worked/lived around folks
not pulling their weight, I'm ok with them not prospering as much as
those who do.

You want to take drugs? Fine, just don't expect me to support you.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-01 00:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ToddP
Post by Mavisbeacon
are probablt the most powerful military in the World but even given that
they cant even control a small country like Iraq.
Can't control it precisely because we've chosen to fight a war in a
"civilized" fashion. Ironically, if we chose to be as amoral as we're
being accused of being, we could have carpet bombed the country into
submission by now.
You commit three errors here. Yo uassume that it is acceptable for a
"civilised" country to behave as terrorists do! If so then what are you
fighting against? How are you any different to them? Second of all you
assume that Iraq was a muslim fundamentalist country. It wasn't! Third you
carpet bombed Viet Nam but it didnt win you any war did it?
Post by ToddP
Post by Mavisbeacon
THe ruling classed of the Us live a comfortable existance. It is unlikly
that someone with a drug addict brother a father never at home living in a
trailer park will ever get to the Presidencey but Clinton did just that!
Most of the senior politicians are from the billionaire class.
Not sure what your point is here, but that is how capitalist societies
work. And frankly, I'm glad of it. Having worked/lived around folks
not pulling their weight, I'm ok with them not prospering as much as
those who do.
Doesn't say much for the blinsd the handicapped or the unborn child who cant
"pull their weight" does it? I thin we all know what type of people last
tried to do away with those they decided weren't "pulling their weight"
don't we? ANd what weight did a person ever carry who inhereted all their
wealth?
Post by ToddP
You want to take drugs? Fine, just don't expect me to support you.
So you thikk you should round up all the drug addicts and put them into
concentration camps or simple exterminate them? have you considered why they
are drug addicts in the first place? and how is it a rich guy can pay to get
his bood changed or go to the Betty Ford clinic then?
ToddP
2007-06-02 04:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
You commit three errors here. Yo uassume that it is acceptable for a
"civilised" country to behave as terrorists do! If so then what are you
fighting against? How are you any different to them? Second of all you
assume that Iraq was a muslim fundamentalist country. It wasn't! Third you
carpet bombed Viet Nam but it didnt win you any war did it?
As far as acting like terrorists, I've not heard about our troops
deliberately targeting civilians - other than 2 or 3 situations where
the troops are being court marshaled.

Iraq WAS a fundamentalist country kept under strict control by
Saddam. Intimidating the population to keep them under control does
not mean the country was secular. Are you really proposing that all
this fundamentalism just came about in the past couple years?

We carpet bombed the hell out of the country side (i.e. the Ho Chi
Mihn trail), not their cities.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Doesn't say much for the blinsd the handicapped or the unborn child who cant
"pull their weight" does it? I thin we all know what type of people last
tried to do away with those they decided weren't "pulling their weight"
don't we? ANd what weight did a person ever carry who inhereted all their
wealth?
Wow, nothing like immediately jumping to the far extreme. Certainly
there are people with disabilities who need a safety net. And for
every one of them, there is someone scamming because its just too much
trouble to have to go to work. Your lot in life is usually decided by
the decisions you make. Those who'd rather go out partying than to go
to school. Those who can't be bothered to show up for work in any
condition to produce. Those who have out of wedlock children as
teenagers. Yes, some cases are sad. But YOU made your decisions, now
live with them.

You better believe they should be rewarded financially according to
their contribution.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by ToddP
You want to take drugs? Fine, just don't expect me to support you.
So you thikk you should round up all the drug addicts and put them into
concentration camps or simple exterminate them? have you considered why they
are drug addicts in the first place? and how is it a rich guy can pay to get
his bood changed or go to the Betty Ford clinic then?
How in THE HELL did you get all that tripe from my statement of "Fine,
just don't expect me to support you"?
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-05 08:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ToddP
Post by Mavisbeacon
You commit three errors here. Yo uassume that it is acceptable for a
"civilised" country to behave as terrorists do! If so then what are you
fighting against? How are you any different to them? Second of all you
assume that Iraq was a muslim fundamentalist country. It wasn't! Third you
carpet bombed Viet Nam but it didnt win you any war did it?
As far as acting like terrorists, I've not heard about our troops
deliberately targeting civilians
You commit another two errors here! first just because you haven't heard it
does not mean it hasen't happend. second targeting civilians is not
necessarily the ONLY thing that terrorists do which makes them terrorists.

In counter evidence it is clear that the US has been engaged in torture and
kidnapping, as well as US personell abusing prisioners. These are the type
of thing that terrorists do!
Post by ToddP
other than 2 or 3 situations where
the troops are being court marshaled.
Those again are the incidents you have "heard" about. But let me ask you, do
you really believe it is normal to hold people for five years without
bringing them befiore a court and accusing them of something?
Post by ToddP
Iraq WAS a fundamentalist country kept under strict control by
Saddam.
It was certainlt NOT aq muslim fundamentalist country! I note your use of
"fundamentalist" seems to have changed. It is clear that we are here
discussing MUSLIM fundamentalists such as Al Khyda. IIndeed that is the
phrase I used. If you want to refer to other countries with a non muslim
fundamentalist problem we can easily look into the issues of christian
fundamentalists in the US. If you wish to change you definition of
"fundamentalist" then please be clear about it. You are in danger oif
watering it down but I am happy to accept any greying of the borders as long
as you accept that as you muddy the waters the US can also be accused of
assisting those who you call "fundamentalist" under this new definition.
Post by ToddP
Intimidating the population to keep them under control does
not mean the country was secular.
Actually it does! It does not mean it was a democracy but it was certainly
not a muslim fundamentalist State!
Post by ToddP
Are you really proposing that all
this fundamentalism just came about in the past couple years?
In Iraq? Yes certainly! Please care to show me ANY evidence of Al Khyda or
any other muslim fundamentalist groups operating in Iraq when Saddam was in
charge?
Post by ToddP
We carpet bombed the hell out of the country side (i.e. the Ho Chi
Mihn trail), not their cities.
Defoliating about a third of the whole country as far as I remember. Bt you
did bomb population centres as well. The point is they country was not
bombed into submission and the US, in the final analysis, withdrew.
Post by ToddP
Post by Mavisbeacon
Doesn't say much for the blinsd the handicapped or the unborn child who cant
"pull their weight" does it? I thin we all know what type of people last
tried to do away with those they decided weren't "pulling their weight"
don't we? ANd what weight did a person ever carry who inhereted all their
wealth?
Wow, nothing like immediately jumping to the far extreme.
It is called counter argument. When the Germans began on the Jews and
Gypsies it began no doubt with allegations of them being dirty and lazy and
not pulling their weight. It progressed to a plan for wiping out all who
couldent contribute to their ideal of a progressive economy and culture.
Post by ToddP
Certainly
there are people with disabilities who need a safety net.
One great safety net is having a job. But the US laid of a million or so
Iraqi Army without any welfare and devistated the economy.
Post by ToddP
And for
every one of them, there is someone scamming because its just too much
trouble to have to go to work.
Back to " half of them are to lazy to work" now are we?
Post by ToddP
Your lot in life is usually decided by
the decisions you make. Those who'd rather go out partying than to go
to school. Those who can't be bothered to show up for work in any
condition to produce.
I think you are not in touch with reality. It is ludricrous to claim that
Iraqi people are to lazy to show up for work and that they are out partying
all night. this might be more suited to comfortable people in the US but it
certaqinly is a bad example when applied to Iraq. Where are all thses lazy
partying Iraquis?
Post by ToddP
Those who have out of wedlock children as
teenagers. Yes, some cases are sad. But YOU made your decisions, now
live with them.
In fact it is quite likely that the rate of unmarried parents in Iraq is
quite low. It is more likely pregnant women are married. Of course many of
the husbands may be killed because of war. So how will that change anything?
How is a woman whose husband is dead somehow better able to contribute to
society and the economy than a woman who had a child outside marriage?
Post by ToddP
You better believe they should be rewarded financially according to
their contribution.
"To each according to what he can give to the State" now is it? And so we
are back to the handicapped who cant give as much. You now recomment that
they should not be rewarded as much as others who can work harder! The big
blond blue eyed guy who can contribute more work should be admired and
rewarded and the dirty lazy (we all know who you mean) ones should get
little or nothing?
Post by ToddP
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by ToddP
You want to take drugs? Fine, just don't expect me to support you.
So you thikk you should round up all the drug addicts and put them into
concentration camps or simple exterminate them? have you considered why they
are drug addicts in the first place? and how is it a rich guy can pay to get
his blood changed or go to the Betty Ford clinic then?
How in THE HELL did you get all that tripe from my statement of "Fine,
just don't expect me to support you"?
Quite easily. I should think it is obvious but if you don't understand I
will explain .But try answering the questions first. Can you do that?
It is symptomatic of your simplistic division of "master race" versus "lazy
dirty others" who you make into social outcasts. Yo first of all define a
sympotom which everyone can see. the fact that the definition is
questionable id beside the point. People can see how iot manifests. You then
go on to saying these symptoms should be wiped out or at lease put somewhere
where we cant see them. One must think why you havent addressed what CAUSED
the symptom and why you dont address the cause?

"I wont support you if A" where A is "taking drugs" "being lazy" "having
children outside marriage." It puts you in a position of moral superiority
as if you are the righteous one and these other "undermenchen" are scarsely
deserving of your contempt. All the problems of society are due to these
others. as I stated I think I have seen that before somewhere. It is simple
enough to expose as an oversimplistic analysis.

Mavisbeacon
2007-05-27 16:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have a question: Where in Guantanamo Bay, the
Post by j***@hotmail.com
CIA "Secret Prisons" or in Abu Gharayb, did the US ever sever hands,
drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin,
remove eyes or and electrocute people?
I believe severing hands is a middle east institution. The US army used to
drag Indians behind horses until they died. The School of Americas taught
the South American dictators how to use extension cords to torture their
victims as they worked to quash land reforms in those countries. Look it
up!
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
Eh John you are contradicting yourself are you not? CIA prisions include
the like of Egypt say, but by far the largest "CIA prison" not on US soil,
where "rendition" prisioners are brought is Guantanamo Bay. The people
there are NOT only from Iraq! In fact there were NONE from Iraq and NO
active muslim fundamentalists in Iraq BEFORE the US invasion! Mind you I
have left out Iraqui prisions as they dont "render" people into the same
place they claim to have got them do they. Also, you may claim that Iraqui
prisions are large but if you do and you claim they are full of iraquis and
not full of non Iraqui foreigners then I will ask you (as I have asked Chip
and he hasen't replied) how is it that you claim the "insurgents" are all
foreign Muslim fundamentalists (remember under Sadam ther were NONE of
these, they came in from abroad after the US invaded and removed the Iraqui
army) then how could all the prisioners be local Iraquis?

But in spite of the nonsensical "only comparing US in Iraq today with the
whole history of Persia" comment you simply just CAN'T single out such
places even if it was true. Suppoee the US occupied Guam tomorrow (oh sorry
ther are there already arent they?) and tortured nobody and the people of
guam had a history of torture (actually maybe New Zeland might be a better
example). Okat the US occupy New Zeland. Now the Mauri are only "new" in New
Zeeland having only arrived there about 500 years ago. Being cannibals, they
ate the people that were before them. assuming the US troops do not eat the
local people that still does not excuse the torture of others elsewhere does
it? so why compare some subset and try to apply any non fitting particular
case to the general argument?
One cant go from the particular and claim it is general can one? One might
see a white swan and claim on that basis all swans are white couldnt one?
j***@hotmail.com
2007-05-29 08:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
Eh John you are contradicting yourself are you not? CIA prisions include
the like of Egypt say, but by far the largest "CIA prison" not on US soil,
where "rendition" prisioners are brought is Guantanamo Bay. The people
there are NOT only from Iraq! <snip>
You are missing the point here. What we did to Native Americans back
in the 1800s does not have a whole lot of bearing on what we are doing
in Iraq today. If it does, then I can start by listing every past
crime of torture and abuse of every enemy of the US in Iraq, and we
will be going at it all day. The main point is the the US media,
indeed the world media, went into a feeding frenzy over the tortures
at Abu Gharayb, yet those tortures were extremely mild compared to the
ones carried out by insurgents on a daily basis. I have seen these
with my own eyes. I have seen dead Iraqis dumped by the side of the
road with drill holes in their bodies. How do you think those holes
got there? I have seen bodies with all their toes cut off. How do you
think that happened? I guarantee you they weren't cut off after the
guy was killed. And these tortures were only done by the Mahdi militia
- believe it or not, Al-Qaeda is even worse!

Where is the Muslim world's condemnation and outrage?

JR

http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-29 09:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I am only talking about Iraq. If you are going to bring up every type
of torture used in US history, it would only be fair for me to compare
with tortures throughout Iraqi history. I guarantee you, theirs would
be far worse both in numbers and intensity.
Eh John you are contradicting yourself are you not? CIA prisions include
the like of Egypt say, but by far the largest "CIA prison" not on US soil,
where "rendition" prisioners are brought is Guantanamo Bay. The people
there are NOT only from Iraq! <snip>
You are missing the point here. What we did to Native Americans back
in the 1800s does not have a whole lot of bearing on what we are doing
in Iraq today.
Why not?
It was wrong to massacre people at Wounded Knee or Mai Lai. Just as it is
wrong to torture degrade of massacre civilians in Iraq today. As for the
latter of these I don't know but falluja might be a candidate.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
If it does, then I can start by listing every past
crime of torture and abuse of every enemy of the US in Iraq, and we
will be going at it all day.
Which is the whole point of the justice system. To go into (not necessarily
to punish) every instance of abuse.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
The main point is the the US media,
indeed the world media, went into a feeding frenzy over the tortures
at Abu Gharayb, yet those tortures were extremely mild compared to the
ones carried out by insurgents on a daily basis.
So what? It isn't for forces of so called "civilised" countries to behave as
terrorists do. the IRA set of bombs all over Britian and Ireland and Europe.
But that does not justify the British security forces assaassinating people
in Gibralta or in planning the Dublin/Monaghan bombings does it? Indeed
Bloody Sunday (both the ont in Dublin in the 1920s and the one in Derry) are
also good examples since they depicy troops openly killing civilians having
suffered troop losses of their own at the hands of the IRA.

Indeed any such behaviour plays into the hands of guerilla forces.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have seen these
with my own eyes. I have seen dead Iraqis dumped by the side of the
road with drill holes in their bodies. How do you think those holes
got there?
Eh drills maybe? While this is all very horrible wehat has it got to do with
the point?
To be callous so what? So what if there are evil Iraqui murderers (and most
of these are probably perpretrated by Iraquis and not by imported
fundamentalists)?
That does not justify US troops behaving in the same manner!

You remind me of Col. Walter Kurtz. based on Hemmingwasy Heart of Darkness
but set in Cambodia.
He tell a story of US troops in Viet Nam coming into a village and
inoculating all the children. Next day they returned to witness a pile of
arms. the Viet Cong had cut off every inoculated arm. This is what
fundamentalists do. It isn't justified but you must see the reason for it.
The reason struck Kurtz like a "diamond bullet" straight to the forehead.
Brando plays it well "The Horror! The Horror!"

We neednt go into that unless you want to but the point still stands. That
does not justify US troops behaving in the same manner!

But please don't tell me of the US interest in drills. Clearly the
administration is far more interested in oil drills.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
I have seen bodies with all their toes cut off. How do you
think that happened? I guarantee you they weren't cut off after the
guy was killed. And these tortures were only done by the Mahdi militia
- believe it or not, Al-Qaeda is even worse!
Yes but the US troops are told to allow the leader of the Mhadi army to walk
aroung Baghdad!
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Where is the Muslim world's condemnation and outrage?
You really are getting into hot water on this one.
There is widespread condemnation in the Muslim world on this type of thing.
You must be reading censored or biased sources. Try reading the following
and see if you then think muslims don't condemn violence. You seem to have
an open mind. Well then go and look and see for yourself and come back if
you still think the same way and tell us why.

thank you.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

What follows is only a links page from the above source many to other pages
with many more links. I dont even include the text just the Headlines

Muslim Leaders

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass
Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by
Organizations

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn
International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives



Specific Muslim Scholars

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by
Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim
Winter)

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad
Afifi al-Akiti

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza
Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad
Sayyed Tantawi

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian
Muslim leaders

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh
Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various
scholars

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by
various scholars

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul
Qadri

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H.
Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani
scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani
scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz
Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh
Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the
Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice
Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem
As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic
University

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by
Spanish Muslim leaders

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss
Mosque, Seattle

The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah
bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf

Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh
Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj

What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars



Individual Ordinary Muslims

Special links

A Country United- Poem by a Muslim woman about September 11

Islam Denounces Terrorism- Site of Muslim scholar Harun Yahya

Muslims Against Terrorism- An organization founded by Muslims who stand
against the hijacking of Islam by extremists and terrorists

Report: Muslim Celebrities Condemn Attacks- Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens),
Muhammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets

Muslim charities who solicited donations to help victims in New York City:

a.. Global Relief Foundation
b.. Islamic Relief
c.. Mercy USA
Articles, essays, and columns

Here are some things I've written myself; some of these pages may also
contain links to further condemnations of more recent events:

a step in the right direction

Al-Qaeda on defensive as bombs begin to backfire

Arab views on the Russian hostage crisis

Bali Attacks a Heinous Crime, Total Barbarism, says prominent Muslim scholar

Death and destruction in the name of Islam?

do not let hatred drive you to injustice

does the Quran really command killing unbelievers?

Even more sick

explosions in London

hell no

Hiraba versus Jihad

horror in the Caucasus

in case you hadn't noticed this story

Islamic rulings on warfare

Killing of children is an abomination, whoever does it

Muslim scholars seek to rein in 'sheikhs of death'

Muslims condemn Berg beheading

Muslims who act as if Islam had never come and its teachings had never been
revealed

not silent

not silent, not even close

Oh, God. Not again.

on the bombings in Jordan

On the terrorist attack in Indonesia

Once more with feeling

Organization of the Islamic Conference: Muslims must fight extremism

Qaradawi condemns terrorism in Qatar

Qataris demonstrate against terrorism

Saudi clerics condemn terrorism in front of 2 million Muslim pilgrims

Saudi scholars condemn violence

Sick

Sick of people who murder to advance their cause

terrorism is a return to the pre-Islamic ignorance

Terrorism is not Islam

Terrorism, again.

terrorism, fascism, Islamophobia... a strange mix indeed

terrorist attacks in Egypt

terrorists strike at the heart of Shi'a Islam

the truth about jihad

the two sides of Yusuf Qaradawi

to remember and again to condemn those who did it

Top Saudi cleric condemns terrorism

using Islam to fight terrorism

Wahhabi scholar condemns terrorism

Wahhabis condemning terrorism

When I read this in the news, my heart sank to the floor

And here are articles by other ordinary Muslims:

A Curse Upon the Brigands Who Kill Children, by Aziz Poonawalla

A Dastardly Act, by Ikram Seghal

A Muslim Surgeon's Prayer for His Fellow Americans, by Aftab Ahmad

Amid simmering religious tension, Muslims denounce killing of Christian
family, by (Associated Press report)

Area Muslims slam suicide bombing, by Washington Times report

Bin Laden's Fatwa is a Call to Plunder Not Jihad, by Aziz H. Poonawalla

Defaming, Defiling, and Falsifying Islam: A Condemnation of al-Qaeda, by
Frank M. Afflitto, convert to Islam

Does the Quran Sanction Violence?, by Mohamed Elmasry

Hirabah versus Jihad, by Robert D. Crane, convert to Islam

Horrified by What Happened in the U.S., by Ahmad Y. Majdoubeh

Human Nature at Its Worst, by Amir Meshkin

I Believe in Allah and America, by Arsalan Iftikhar

I'm Not the Enemy, by Reshma Memon Yaqub

Islam Demands a Muslim Response to 9/11 (PDF), by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad

Islam condemns all acts of terrorism, by Daar-ul-Ehsaan

Islam is Not the Source of Terrorism, by Harun Yahya

Islam is Not to Blame, by Omar Sarwar

Islam is a Religion of Peace, Not Terrorism, by Muhammad Ali

Islam: A Home of Tolerance Not Fanaticism, by Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)

Islamic Scholars Should Speak Up for the Truth about Islam and Jihad, by
Laila Nasheeba-Or

Jihad Means Waging Peace and Justice, by Mohamed Elmasry

May God Touch All of Us with His Infinite Grace, by Susan Abulhawa

Muslims Must Not Let Terrorism Become the Voice of Islam, by Blerime Topalli

My Fatwa on the Fanatics, by Ziauddin Sardar

Not In My Name: A Treatise Against Religious Intolerance, by Richard L.
Dixon, convert to Islam

Osama Bin Laden: An Enemy of Islam, by Muqtedar Khan

Press Release, by Khalid Usman, Councillor, Ward 7, Markham, Ontario

Some Misappropriations of Quranic Verses, by David Dakake, Islamic Research
Institute (PDF)

Terror Is Not Islam, by Kari Ann Owen (convert to Islam)

The Meaning of Jihad, by Hesham Hassaballa

The Real Meaning of the Concept of Jihad, by Ahmed Motiar

Twin Towers Viewed from a Western Minaret: Thoughts of a Convert to Islam,
by Michael Wolfe

Under Attack, by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad

What Does the Quran's 'Verse of the Sword' Really Mean?, by Hesham A.
Hassaballa

When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them, by
Ziauddin Sardar

Who Hijacked Islam, by Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian dissident

Messages on Muslims' Websites:

a.. Al-Islam, by scholars at a Shi'ite resource site
b.. Islam: The Modern Religion, by Fareena Alam
c.. Islamic Studies page, by Alan Godlas (convert to Islam)
d.. Kamilat, by Talibah Jilani
e.. Muslim Answers, by Abd ar-Rahman Robert Squires
f.. Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part III - Statements
& Articles by Individuals, by various individuals
See also: Muslim Imam Offers Words of Prayer at World Trade Center Memorial
Ceremony

Bonus: View This Is Islam: "Islam, it's all about peace, terrorism it
doesn't teach".



Ongoing: The Council on American-Islamic Relations

In an effort to show that Muslim activism against terrorism didn't stop
after 9/11, this section contains press releases and statements by the
Council on American-Islamic Relations condemning terrorist attacks. This is
a resource in development. Subscribe to CAIR's mailing list to keep up with
their latest statements and releases.

American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003

CAIR Calls for Release of All Hostages in Iraq - Tuesday, September 21, 2004

CAIR Condemns 'Barbaric' London Terror Attacks - Thursday, July 07, 2005

CAIR Condemns Attack On Seattle Jewish Center - Saturday, July 29, 2006

CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002

CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003

CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003

CAIR Condemns Hariri Assassination - Monday, February 14, 2005

CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004

CAIR Condemns Killing of British Hostage in Iraq - Friday, October 08, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of Margaret Hassan - Wednesday, November 17, 2004

CAIR Condemns School Killings in Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 2004

CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004

CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003

CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of
hostages - 4/9/2004

CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004

CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004

CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004

CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)

CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003

CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004

CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March 19,
2004

CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel - Thursday,
March 28, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court - Friday,
July 05, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns hate graffiti on Edmonton synagogue - Wednesday, December
28, 2005

CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in Pakistan -
Tuesday, October 30, 2001

CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people -
Thursday, November 14, 2002

CAIR-NJ Offers Condolences to Coptic Community - Monday, January 17, 2005

CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003

Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday,
October 15, 2001

Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism -
Friday, March 05, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September 11,
2001

Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002

Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002

Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003

Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01

Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002

Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003

Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October 16,
2002

U.S. Imams Say Iraq Hostage-Takers Violate Islamic Beliefs - Friday, October
29, 2004

U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003

U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004

U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday, July 23,
2002

US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003



Special: Muslims in the Military

Are American Muslims patriotic? Do they serve their country, or support
America's response to the terrorist attacks? Read these stories to find out
more

Islam Gains Place in U.S. Military As Ranks of Muslims Grow

Islamic Scholars Say U.S. Muslim Soldiers Must Fight for Country

Muslim soldier dies in Iraq

Muslims In Military: Arab-American proudly serves U.S.

Muslims in the U.S. Military are As Loyal As Any, Chaplain Says

Ramadan a Sacred Time for U.S. Muslim Troops

UK Muslims Must Obey UK Law, says Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem

Plus: American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans



Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some Quranic
Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the Innocent.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
JR
http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com
Docky Wocky
2007-05-29 14:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Well, we already have tons of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers right
here in country, so there can be little doubt that the miscreants
subscribing to almighty islam have copies of the same manuals, or have
worked-up their own.

Where are these terrorists? I remember one Greg Copley, President of the
International Strategic Studies
Association, mentioning, "Islamberg in New York, Ahmedabad in Virginia, and
Holy Islamville in South Carolina," for starters. These communities of the
faithful, in actuality islamic fortresses complete with gate guards and
sentries, are not open to the public and consist of legal and illegal
muslims from Pakistan, and men who are said to have converted, prosthelitzed
to Islam while in US prisons.

There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just one of
several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active here in the USA
holds "educational" seminars for willing participants.

One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's real
face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-29 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
"Docky Wocky" <***@lst.net> wrote in message news:aZW6i.6062$***@trnddc04...
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just one of
several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active here in the USA
holds "educational" seminars for willing participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's real
face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.

WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot not a
Muslim group.
Docky Wocky
2007-05-29 17:39:11 UTC
Permalink
mavis beacon sez:

"Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland..."
______________________________

Yeah, what a comparison. What was it? 100 and some Branch Davidians, 750
Jimmy Jones Koolaid Drinkers?

Compared to islamic militancy, Christian whack-jobs are microcosm when it
comes to numbers.

When it comes to assessing which group is more of a threat to me, there
ain't no comparison.

I have no fear of "Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland," or anywhere
else.

Of course, I expect you have all the info about how many guns the islamic
extremists currently training in those Jamaat ul-Fuqra Lands right here in
the USA?
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-31 14:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Docky Wocky
"Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland..."
______________________________
Yeah, what a comparison. What was it? 100 and some Branch Davidians, 750
Jimmy Jones Koolaid Drinkers?
Compared to islamic militancy, Christian whack-jobs are microcosm when it
comes to numbers.
Jonestown and Jim Jones - 900+ deaths
David Korish and Branch Davidians - 90
solar Temple was 74 deaths but that was mainly ingroups Originally from
switzerland and Canada ( although last time I looked they were part of the
"free world")
Heaven's Gate - 40
Church of the Lamb of God - 24+
Yahweh Ben Yahweh & The Temple of Love - 14
Charles manson and the family - 9+
The Ripper Crew -18
Jeffrey Lundgren -5
Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee -3
Kentucky Occult teen killers -3
West memphis three -3
Wyoming Valley Satinists -2
San Luis Obispo Satinist -1
Nathan Brooks -2
Lords of Chaos -1
Denver Concerned Christians - 50 dissappearances
God's Salvation - 140?
Raelians -1?

Thats close to 1250. These are the KNOWN cases!




THE ABOVE list IS exclusive to the US with the exception of the solar temple
and the fact that Jim Jones took his group with him when he left the Us but
they were all to my knowledge US citizens. What is not exclusive to the US
is fundamentalism. But fundamentalism does pose a threat to the US.
Christian fundamentalism in particular has other non lethal effects such as
for example affecting educational standards by insisting biblical
creationism have as much time as Evolution on the curriculum. Only recently
Bush commented on his support for "intelligent design" a modern phrase for
creationism.

And what about the thousands of missing children whose pictures festoon milk
cartons in the US?
Post by Docky Wocky
When it comes to assessing which group is more of a threat to me, there
ain't no comparison.
There is a comparison. I just made it! In fact there has been TWO Muslim
funded related attacks (on different days) in the US. One with no deaths
one with 3000 dead.
Post by Docky Wocky
I have no fear of "Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland," or anywhere
else.
How about in Oklahoma City. they were NRA "militia" types were they not?
Post by Docky Wocky
Of course, I expect you have all the info about how many guns the islamic
extremists currently training in those Jamaat ul-Fuqra Lands right here in
the USA?
No. Care to tell me? Why bring in guns when the country is awash with them?
Docky Wocky
2007-05-31 14:16:10 UTC
Permalink
bevisbeacon sez:

"Thats close to 1250. These are the KNOWN cases!..."
__________________________
You don't seriously believe that I am gonna buy your BS that these are
Christians, do you?

They are all kooks and there is about as much connection between "Christian"
and those kooks you dragged up as there is between intelligence and you.

Keep trying.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-01 00:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Docky Wocky
"Thats close to 1250. These are the KNOWN cases!..."
__________________________
You don't seriously believe that I am gonna buy your BS that these are
Christians, do you?
They are all kooks and there is about as much connection between "Christian"
and those kooks you dragged up as there is between intelligence and you.
As there is as much connection between kooks like al Queda and "Muslims"?
shogun
2007-05-30 04:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active here
in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs. Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything. You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Mavisbeacon
2007-05-31 14:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active here
in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male sionce I
couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
shogun
2007-05-31 21:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active
here in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing
participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be
Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that are
also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and jihad,
which Islam condones.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
2007-05-31 21:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active
here in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing
participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that are
also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and jihad,
which Islam condones.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
Zeno
2007-05-31 23:12:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:49:17 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
The action is more than just in the Quran. It is so prevalent, there
is a special name for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
2007-05-31 23:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zeno
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:49:17 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
The action is more than just in the Quran. It is so prevalent, there
is a special name for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir
And what in the Koran entitles a non-scholar such as Bin Laden to declare
another Muslim as takfir and also what entitles Bin Laden to issue fatwas?
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
Zeno
2007-06-02 17:59:45 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 May 2007 23:36:34 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by Zeno
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:49:17 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
The action is more than just in the Quran. It is so prevalent, there
is a special name for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir
And what in the Koran entitles a non-scholar such as Bin Laden to declare
another Muslim as takfir and also what entitles Bin Laden to issue fatwas?
Now that you've had time to think about your questions, what do you
suppose the answers to your questions are?
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
2007-06-02 18:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zeno
On Thu, 31 May 2007 23:36:34 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by Zeno
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:49:17 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
The action is more than just in the Quran. It is so prevalent, there
is a special name for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir
And what in the Koran entitles a non-scholar such as Bin Laden to declare
another Muslim as takfir and also what entitles Bin Laden to issue fatwas?
Now that you've had time to think about your questions, what do you
suppose the answers to your questions are?
I'm aslking you. How ignorant ARE you?
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-01 00:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zeno
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:49:17 GMT, GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon
Post by GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh yeah? What does the Koran say about killing innocent Muslims with bombs?
The action is more than just in the Quran. It is so prevalent, there
is a special name for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir
And christians have the term "Crusade" .
So what?
shogun
2007-06-01 11:35:38 UTC
Permalink
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia <***@hotmail.com> wrote in news:xpH7i.80605$***@attbi_s21:




The only good Democrat is a dead Democrat, and even they are no good.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-01 00:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active
here in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing
participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that are
also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and jihad,
which Islam condones.
Islam doesn't condone it! and by the same token there are militant Christian
grups!
I can supply you with quotes form hundreds of Islamic clerics and others who
have not condoned it!
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh you are an expert on the Koran now are you?
Read the Bible sometime!
Ill bet I can get at least two (probably twenty two) quotes form the Bible
to match any you cull from the Koran.
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
Then why make claims about something of which you admit you are willfully
ignorant ?
shogun
2007-06-01 11:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra,
just one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already
active here in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing
participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show
it's real face - they just haven't been called on to perform,
yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian
offshoot not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that
are also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and
jihad, which Islam condones.
Islam doesn't condone it! and by the same token there are militant
Christian grups!
I can supply you with quotes form hundreds of Islamic clerics and
others who have not condoned it!
I am waiting.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh you are an expert on the Koran now are you?
Read the Bible sometime!
Ill bet I can get at least two (probably twenty two) quotes form the
Bible to match any you cull from the Koran.
Ok, show me where the Bible encourages a jihad.
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
Then why make claims about something of which you admit you are
willfully ignorant ?
I only imitate you.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-01 13:02:50 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian
offshoot not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that
are also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and
jihad, which Islam condones.
Islam doesn't condone it! and by the same token there are militant
Christian grups!
I can supply you with quotes form hundreds of Islamic clerics and
others who have not condoned it!
I am waiting.
See below under ************************
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh you are an expert on the Koran now are you?
Read the Bible sometime!
Ill bet I can get at least two (probably twenty two) quotes form the
Bible to match any you cull from the Koran.
Ok, show me where the Bible encourages a jihad.
Show me the Koran quote first and Ill show you two of similar schpeel from
the Bible.
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
Then why make claims about something of which you admit you are
willfully ignorant ?
I only imitate you.
"What about..." isn't answering the question. furthermore it isnt shown that
I am willfully ignorant nor that I make claims about such things. But in
spite of not showint this the question isn't about ME it is about you. Why
make claims about something of which you admit you are willfully ignorant if
sa you claim you "don't care"?


************************************
http://www.mediamonitors.net/riadabdelkarim3.html
http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Where you can find links to:

Muslim Leaders

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass
Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by
Organizations

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn
International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives



Specific Muslim Scholars

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by
Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim
Winter)

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad
Afifi al-Akiti

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza
Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad
Sayyed Tantawi

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian
Muslim leaders

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh
Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various
scholars

Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by
various scholars

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul
Qadri

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H.
Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani
scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani
scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz
Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh
Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the
Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice
Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem
As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic
University

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by
Spanish Muslim leaders

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss
Mosque, Seattle

The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah
bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf

Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh
Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj

What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars



Individual Ordinary Muslims

Special links

A Country United- Poem by a Muslim woman about September 11

Islam Denounces Terrorism- Site of Muslim scholar Harun Yahya

Muslims Against Terrorism- An organization founded by Muslims who stand
against the hijacking of Islam by extremists and terrorists

Report: Muslim Celebrities Condemn Attacks- Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens),
Muhammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets

Muslim charities who solicited donations to help victims in New York City:

a.. Global Relief Foundation
b.. Islamic Relief
c.. Mercy USA
Articles, essays, and columns

Here are some things I've written myself; some of these pages may also
contain links to further condemnations of more recent events:

a step in the right direction

Al-Qaeda on defensive as bombs begin to backfire

Arab views on the Russian hostage crisis

Bali Attacks a Heinous Crime, Total Barbarism, says prominent Muslim scholar

Death and destruction in the name of Islam?

do not let hatred drive you to injustice

does the Quran really command killing unbelievers?

Even more sick

explosions in London

hell no

Hiraba versus Jihad

horror in the Caucasus

in case you hadn't noticed this story

Islamic rulings on warfare

Killing of children is an abomination, whoever does it

Muslim scholars seek to rein in 'sheikhs of death'

Muslims condemn Berg beheading

Muslims who act as if Islam had never come and its teachings had never been
revealed

not silent

not silent, not even close

Oh, God. Not again.

on the bombings in Jordan

On the terrorist attack in Indonesia

Once more with feeling

Organization of the Islamic Conference: Muslims must fight extremism

Qaradawi condemns terrorism in Qatar

Qataris demonstrate against terrorism

Saudi clerics condemn terrorism in front of 2 million Muslim pilgrims

Saudi scholars condemn violence

Sick

Sick of people who murder to advance their cause

terrorism is a return to the pre-Islamic ignorance

Terrorism is not Islam

Terrorism, again.

terrorism, fascism, Islamophobia... a strange mix indeed

terrorist attacks in Egypt

terrorists strike at the heart of Shi'a Islam

the truth about jihad

the two sides of Yusuf Qaradawi

to remember and again to condemn those who did it

Top Saudi cleric condemns terrorism

using Islam to fight terrorism

Wahhabi scholar condemns terrorism

Wahhabis condemning terrorism

When I read this in the news, my heart sank to the floor

And here are articles by other ordinary Muslims:

A Curse Upon the Brigands Who Kill Children, by Aziz Poonawalla

A Dastardly Act, by Ikram Seghal

A Muslim Surgeon's Prayer for His Fellow Americans, by Aftab Ahmad

Amid simmering religious tension, Muslims denounce killing of Christian
family, by (Associated Press report)

Area Muslims slam suicide bombing, by Washington Times report

Bin Laden's Fatwa is a Call to Plunder Not Jihad, by Aziz H. Poonawalla

Defaming, Defiling, and Falsifying Islam: A Condemnation of al-Qaeda, by
Frank M. Afflitto, convert to Islam

Does the Quran Sanction Violence?, by Mohamed Elmasry

Hirabah versus Jihad, by Robert D. Crane, convert to Islam

Horrified by What Happened in the U.S., by Ahmad Y. Majdoubeh

Human Nature at Its Worst, by Amir Meshkin

I Believe in Allah and America, by Arsalan Iftikhar

I'm Not the Enemy, by Reshma Memon Yaqub

Islam Demands a Muslim Response to 9/11 (PDF), by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad

Islam condemns all acts of terrorism, by Daar-ul-Ehsaan

Islam is Not the Source of Terrorism, by Harun Yahya

Islam is Not to Blame, by Omar Sarwar

Islam is a Religion of Peace, Not Terrorism, by Muhammad Ali

Islam: A Home of Tolerance Not Fanaticism, by Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)

Islamic Scholars Should Speak Up for the Truth about Islam and Jihad, by
Laila Nasheeba-Or

Jihad Means Waging Peace and Justice, by Mohamed Elmasry

May God Touch All of Us with His Infinite Grace, by Susan Abulhawa

Muslims Must Not Let Terrorism Become the Voice of Islam, by Blerime Topalli

My Fatwa on the Fanatics, by Ziauddin Sardar

Not In My Name: A Treatise Against Religious Intolerance, by Richard L.
Dixon, convert to Islam

Osama Bin Laden: An Enemy of Islam, by Muqtedar Khan

Press Release, by Khalid Usman, Councillor, Ward 7, Markham, Ontario

Some Misappropriations of Quranic Verses, by David Dakake, Islamic Research
Institute (PDF)

Terror Is Not Islam, by Kari Ann Owen (convert to Islam)

The Meaning of Jihad, by Hesham Hassaballa

The Real Meaning of the Concept of Jihad, by Ahmed Motiar

Twin Towers Viewed from a Western Minaret: Thoughts of a Convert to Islam,
by Michael Wolfe

Under Attack, by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad

What Does the Quran's 'Verse of the Sword' Really Mean?, by Hesham A.
Hassaballa

When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them, by
Ziauddin Sardar

Who Hijacked Islam, by Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian dissident

Messages on Muslims' Websites:

a.. Al-Islam, by scholars at a Shi'ite resource site
b.. Islam: The Modern Religion, by Fareena Alam
c.. Islamic Studies page, by Alan Godlas (convert to Islam)
d.. Kamilat, by Talibah Jilani
e.. Muslim Answers, by Abd ar-Rahman Robert Squires
f.. Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part III - Statements
& Articles by Individuals, by various individuals
See also: Muslim Imam Offers Words of Prayer at World Trade Center Memorial
Ceremony

Bonus: View This Is Islam: "Islam, it's all about peace, terrorism it
doesn't teach".



Ongoing: The Council on American-Islamic Relations

In an effort to show that Muslim activism against terrorism didn't stop
after 9/11, this section contains press releases and statements by the
Council on American-Islamic Relations condemning terrorist attacks. This is
a resource in development. Subscribe to CAIR's mailing list to keep up with
their latest statements and releases.

American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003

CAIR Calls for Release of All Hostages in Iraq - Tuesday, September 21, 2004

CAIR Condemns 'Barbaric' London Terror Attacks - Thursday, July 07, 2005

CAIR Condemns Attack On Seattle Jewish Center - Saturday, July 29, 2006

CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002

CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003

CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003

CAIR Condemns Hariri Assassination - Monday, February 14, 2005

CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004

CAIR Condemns Killing of British Hostage in Iraq - Friday, October 08, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of Margaret Hassan - Wednesday, November 17, 2004

CAIR Condemns School Killings in Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 2004

CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004

CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003

CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of
hostages - 4/9/2004

CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004

CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004

CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004

CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)

CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003

CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004

CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March 19,
2004

CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel - Thursday,
March 28, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court - Friday,
July 05, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns hate graffiti on Edmonton synagogue - Wednesday, December
28, 2005

CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in Pakistan -
Tuesday, October 30, 2001

CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people -
Thursday, November 14, 2002

CAIR-NJ Offers Condolences to Coptic Community - Monday, January 17, 2005

CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003

Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday,
October 15, 2001

Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism -
Friday, March 05, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September 11,
2001

Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002

Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002

Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003

Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01

Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002

Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003

Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October 16,
2002

U.S. Imams Say Iraq Hostage-Takers Violate Islamic Beliefs - Friday, October
29, 2004

U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003

U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004

U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday, July 23,
2002

US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003



Special: Muslims in the Military

Are American Muslims patriotic? Do they serve their country, or support
America's response to the terrorist attacks? Read these stories to find out
more

Islam Gains Place in U.S. Military As Ranks of Muslims Grow

Islamic Scholars Say U.S. Muslim Soldiers Must Fight for Country

Muslim soldier dies in Iraq

Muslims In Military: Arab-American proudly serves U.S.

Muslims in the U.S. Military are As Loyal As Any, Chaplain Says

Ramadan a Sacred Time for U.S. Muslim Troops

UK Muslims Must Obey UK Law, says Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem

Plus: American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans



Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some Quranic
Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the Innocent.

*********************************************************************************************

Happy now?
shogun
2007-06-02 00:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mavisbeacon
[snip]
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian
offshoot not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that
are also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah
and jihad, which Islam condones.
Islam doesn't condone it! and by the same token there are militant
Christian grups!
I can supply you with quotes form hundreds of Islamic clerics and
others who have not condoned it!
I am waiting.
See below under ************************
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
Oh you are an expert on the Koran now are you?
Read the Bible sometime!
Ill bet I can get at least two (probably twenty two) quotes form the
Bible to match any you cull from the Koran.
Ok, show me where the Bible encourages a jihad.
Show me the Koran quote first and Ill show you two of similar schpeel
from the Bible.
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that
doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
Then why make claims about something of which you admit you are
willfully ignorant ?
I only imitate you.
"What about..." isn't answering the question. furthermore it isnt
shown that I am willfully ignorant nor that I make claims about such
things. But in spite of not showint this the question isn't about ME
it is about you. Why make claims about something of which you admit
you are willfully ignorant if sa you claim you "don't care"?
************************************
http://www.mediamonitors.net/riadabdelkarim3.html
http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm
http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-
and.
Post by Mavisbeacon
html
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
Muslim Leaders
A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations
American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks
American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11
Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack
Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say
Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say
British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism
British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11
Mass Murders
Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses
Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say
Muslim Reactions to Sept 11
Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by
Organizations
Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.
Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks
New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism
Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn
International Terrorism
Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say
Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism
Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings
U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks
UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'
When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives
Specific Muslim Scholars
Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi
Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin
Laden, by Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah
Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad
(Tim Winter)
Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh
Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti
Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh
Hamza Yusuf
Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad
Sayyed Tantawi
High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by
Russian Muslim leaders
Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei
Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar
Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson
Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui
Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by
Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University
Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid
Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by
various scholars
Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes,
by various scholars
On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir
Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir
ul Qadri
Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar
Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil
H. Siddiqui
Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad,
Pakistani scholar
Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad,
Pakistani scholar
Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes
Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh
Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh
Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by
Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and
President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh
Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh
Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam
Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University
Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin
Laden, by Spanish Muslim leaders
Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl
Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of
Idriss Mosque, Seattle
The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin
Abdullah bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen
The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf
Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by
Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia
Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj
What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars
Individual Ordinary Muslims
Special links
A Country United- Poem by a Muslim woman about September 11
Islam Denounces Terrorism- Site of Muslim scholar Harun Yahya
Muslims Against Terrorism- An organization founded by Muslims who
stand against the hijacking of Islam by extremists and terrorists
Report: Muslim Celebrities Condemn Attacks- Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens),
Muhammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon of the Houston Rockets
a.. Global Relief Foundation
b.. Islamic Relief
c.. Mercy USA
Articles, essays, and columns
Here are some things I've written myself; some of these pages may also
a step in the right direction
Al-Qaeda on defensive as bombs begin to backfire
Arab views on the Russian hostage crisis
Bali Attacks a Heinous Crime, Total Barbarism, says prominent Muslim scholar
Death and destruction in the name of Islam?
do not let hatred drive you to injustice
does the Quran really command killing unbelievers?
Even more sick
explosions in London
hell no
Hiraba versus Jihad
horror in the Caucasus
in case you hadn't noticed this story
Islamic rulings on warfare
Killing of children is an abomination, whoever does it
Muslim scholars seek to rein in 'sheikhs of death'
Muslims condemn Berg beheading
Muslims who act as if Islam had never come and its teachings had never
been revealed
not silent
not silent, not even close
Oh, God. Not again.
on the bombings in Jordan
On the terrorist attack in Indonesia
Once more with feeling
Organization of the Islamic Conference: Muslims must fight extremism
Qaradawi condemns terrorism in Qatar
Qataris demonstrate against terrorism
Saudi clerics condemn terrorism in front of 2 million Muslim pilgrims
Saudi scholars condemn violence
Sick
Sick of people who murder to advance their cause
terrorism is a return to the pre-Islamic ignorance
Terrorism is not Islam
Terrorism, again.
terrorism, fascism, Islamophobia... a strange mix indeed
terrorist attacks in Egypt
terrorists strike at the heart of Shi'a Islam
the truth about jihad
the two sides of Yusuf Qaradawi
to remember and again to condemn those who did it
Top Saudi cleric condemns terrorism
using Islam to fight terrorism
Wahhabi scholar condemns terrorism
Wahhabis condemning terrorism
When I read this in the news, my heart sank to the floor
A Curse Upon the Brigands Who Kill Children, by Aziz Poonawalla
A Dastardly Act, by Ikram Seghal
A Muslim Surgeon's Prayer for His Fellow Americans, by Aftab Ahmad
Amid simmering religious tension, Muslims denounce killing of
Christian family, by (Associated Press report)
Area Muslims slam suicide bombing, by Washington Times report
Bin Laden's Fatwa is a Call to Plunder Not Jihad, by Aziz H.
Poonawalla
Defaming, Defiling, and Falsifying Islam: A Condemnation of al-Qaeda,
by Frank M. Afflitto, convert to Islam
Does the Quran Sanction Violence?, by Mohamed Elmasry
Hirabah versus Jihad, by Robert D. Crane, convert to Islam
Horrified by What Happened in the U.S., by Ahmad Y. Majdoubeh
Human Nature at Its Worst, by Amir Meshkin
I Believe in Allah and America, by Arsalan Iftikhar
I'm Not the Enemy, by Reshma Memon Yaqub
Islam Demands a Muslim Response to 9/11 (PDF), by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad
Islam condemns all acts of terrorism, by Daar-ul-Ehsaan
Islam is Not the Source of Terrorism, by Harun Yahya
Islam is Not to Blame, by Omar Sarwar
Islam is a Religion of Peace, Not Terrorism, by Muhammad Ali
Islam: A Home of Tolerance Not Fanaticism, by Yusuf Islam (Cat
Stevens)
Islamic Scholars Should Speak Up for the Truth about Islam and Jihad,
by Laila Nasheeba-Or
Jihad Means Waging Peace and Justice, by Mohamed Elmasry
May God Touch All of Us with His Infinite Grace, by Susan Abulhawa
Muslims Must Not Let Terrorism Become the Voice of Islam, by Blerime Topalli
My Fatwa on the Fanatics, by Ziauddin Sardar
Not In My Name: A Treatise Against Religious Intolerance, by Richard
L. Dixon, convert to Islam
Osama Bin Laden: An Enemy of Islam, by Muqtedar Khan
Press Release, by Khalid Usman, Councillor, Ward 7, Markham, Ontario
Some Misappropriations of Quranic Verses, by David Dakake, Islamic
Research Institute (PDF)
Terror Is Not Islam, by Kari Ann Owen (convert to Islam)
The Meaning of Jihad, by Hesham Hassaballa
The Real Meaning of the Concept of Jihad, by Ahmed Motiar
Twin Towers Viewed from a Western Minaret: Thoughts of a Convert to
Islam, by Michael Wolfe
Under Attack, by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad
What Does the Quran's 'Verse of the Sword' Really Mean?, by Hesham A.
Hassaballa
When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them, by
Ziauddin Sardar
Who Hijacked Islam, by Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian dissident
a.. Al-Islam, by scholars at a Shi'ite resource site
b.. Islam: The Modern Religion, by Fareena Alam
c.. Islamic Studies page, by Alan Godlas (convert to Islam)
d.. Kamilat, by Talibah Jilani
e.. Muslim Answers, by Abd ar-Rahman Robert Squires
f.. Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part III - Statements
& Articles by Individuals, by various individuals
See also: Muslim Imam Offers Words of Prayer at World Trade Center
Memorial Ceremony
Bonus: View This Is Islam: "Islam, it's all about peace, terrorism it
doesn't teach".
Ongoing: The Council on American-Islamic Relations
In an effort to show that Muslim activism against terrorism didn't
stop after 9/11, this section contains press releases and statements
by the Council on American-Islamic Relations condemning terrorist
attacks. This is a resource in development. Subscribe to CAIR's
mailing list to keep up with their latest statements and releases.
American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003
CAIR Calls for Release of All Hostages in Iraq - Tuesday, September 21, 2004
CAIR Condemns 'Barbaric' London Terror Attacks - Thursday, July 07, 2005
CAIR Condemns Attack On Seattle Jewish Center - Saturday, July 29, 2006
CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002
CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003
CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003
CAIR Condemns Hariri Assassination - Monday, February 14, 2005
CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004
CAIR Condemns Killing of British Hostage in Iraq - Friday, October 08, 2004
CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004
CAIR Condemns Murder of Margaret Hassan - Wednesday, November 17, 2004
CAIR Condemns School Killings in Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 2004
CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004
CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003
CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002
CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of
hostages - 4/9/2004
CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004
CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004
CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004
CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)
CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003
CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004
CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March
19, 2004
CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002
CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel -
Thursday, March 28, 2002
CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004
CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court -
Friday, July 05, 2002
CAIR-CAN condemns hate graffiti on Edmonton synagogue - Wednesday,
December 28, 2005
CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in
Pakistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001
CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people -
Thursday, November 14, 2002
CAIR-NJ Offers Condolences to Coptic Community - Monday, January 17, 2005
CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003
Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday,
October 15, 2001
Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism -
Friday, March 05, 2004
Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September
11, 2001
Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004
Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002
Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002
Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003
Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01
Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004
Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002
Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003
Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October
16, 2002
U.S. Imams Say Iraq Hostage-Takers Violate Islamic Beliefs - Friday,
October 29, 2004
U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003
U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004
U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday,
July 23, 2002
US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003
Special: Muslims in the Military
Are American Muslims patriotic? Do they serve their country, or
support America's response to the terrorist attacks? Read these
stories to find out more
Islam Gains Place in U.S. Military As Ranks of Muslims Grow
Islamic Scholars Say U.S. Muslim Soldiers Must Fight for Country
Muslim soldier dies in Iraq
Muslims In Military: Arab-American proudly serves U.S.
Muslims in the U.S. Military are As Loyal As Any, Chaplain Says
Ramadan a Sacred Time for U.S. Muslim Troops
UK Muslims Must Obey UK Law, says Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem
Plus: American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans
Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some
Quranic Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the
Innocent.
**********************************************************************
*
Post by Mavisbeacon
**********************
Happy now?
Nope. No one of any significance said anything. These are all petty
nobodies.
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-05 08:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[snip]
[quote]
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Also see My Condemnation of the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, Some
Quranic Verses on Jihad, and What Islam Really Says about Killing the
Innocent.
**********************************************************************
*
Post by Mavisbeacon
**********************
Happy now?
Nope. No one of any significance said anything. These are all petty
nobodies.
You only show you are wilfull ignorant! You havent read all of them but you
want to believe you are right so you remain ignorant of them. But In fact I
have proven my point . Your "one true scotsman" fallasy wont detract from
tyhat. You can call US army veterans "petty nobodies" if you want but it
does not detract fronm the fact that I posted several pages of references
about muslims opposing the likes of Al Khyda and your only rebuttal is
"these references are not important! what is important is what I believe! MY
opinion!"


So anyone reading this on one hand has your unsupported bigoted and
willfully ignorant opinion and on the other side my reference to scholars
and researched facts and statements which show up contradictions and logical
flaws in your argument.

Who do you think openminded people are more likely to believe?
Mavisbeacon
2007-06-05 08:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
[quote]
Post by Docky Wocky
There are many other places in the USA where Jamaat ul-Fuqra, just
one of several fundamentalist jihadist movements already active
here in the USA holds "educational" seminars for willing
participants.
One of these days, the Religion of Peace will eventually show it's
real face - they just haven't been called on to perform, yet.
Just as there were Gun loving "Christians" in NRA Bushland.
Owning a gun is not a crime. Planning mass murders and killing innocents in
the name of jihad is.
Post by Mavisbeacon
WACO springs to mind. The Branch Dividians were a Christian offshoot
not a Muslim group.
Actually, no. The Branch Davidians were a cult claiming to be Christians.
Two can play at that game! Al Queda are a cult claiming to be Muslim.
You are wrong again. al Quaeda is a militant group of muslims that are
also murderers, committing such murders in the name of Allah and jihad,
which Islam condones.
First of all Islam doesnt condone it. But as i stated one can then say the
Branch dividians were a militant group of Christians!
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
However, Koresh's actions were contrary to Christian beliefs.
Al queda's actions are contrary to Islam.
Read the Quran sometime.
I have but
Sorry that isnt good enough. AS I pointed out I can easily say "read the
Bible sometime!"

also you have a problem here. You are now claiming that Al Queda are
mainstream . they aren't! Many muslim scholars have opposed them!

But the point is YOU claimed it it is for YOU to support it!
Post by shogun
Post by Mavisbeacon
Post by shogun
Anyone can
say they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
Exactly! Just as Al queda claim to be muslim!
Post by shogun
You could say you were the daughter of your
brother and sister....but that would probably be true.
Again you know nothing about me. It couldn't be true if I was male
sionce I couldn't be the daughter of anyone!
Nor do I care to know anything about you.
then why make comments about who I am the daughter of? If you doin't care
then why refer to it? You contradict yourself.
Kope
2007-06-02 05:43:25 UTC
Permalink
i am a radical muslim please read my blog read how islam will win the
clash of civilization.
http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
Perseid
2007-06-02 15:46:42 UTC
Permalink
After Much Chewing of Cud and Cogitation, Kope <***@yahoo.com> Spat the
Words
Post by Kope
i am a radical muslim please read my blog read how islam will win the
clash of civilization.
http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
How come your website keeps changing, friend ? Somebody's been
dismantling you.
Continue reading on narkive:
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