Discussion:
When the US National Security Advisor is speaking of another country's "unspeakable brutality against its own people" ... Re: DW: Does the US have to accept North Korea as a nuclear power?
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lo yeeOn
2017-08-16 22:13:22 UTC
Permalink
When the US National Security Advisor is speaking of another country's
"unspeakable brutality against its own people", it's a rallying call
to arms.
"...the US would need to find a politically feasible way to enter into
exploratory talks without preconditions. "
Who is really disagreeing?
Ah, my dear friend, you are not listening, are you?

Tons of relevant people have talked about denuclearization and
dismantling of the North's ballistic missile programs. You might
think that nothing has changed. But powerful people are goading Trump
ever more into a first strike, sparing Pyongyang - for now - if the
regime doesn't do anything foolish, meaning if its forces do not shoot
back.

And Joint Chiefs Chairman Dunford has just signed a document with his
Chinese counterpart that essentially is telling China not to do
anything foolish - which they euphemistically term "miscalculations" -
or they will be hurt too.

Finally, there is enough popular support for airstrikes of military
targets to convince Trump that this is his chance to render his due
to the neocons who want the deal done.

Voters aren't more galvanized behind military action, according to
the poll. Last month, half of voters said they backed airstrikes
against military targets and suspected nuclear sites in North
Korea. But that is down slightly, to 47 percent, in the new
poll. (Thirty-five percent of voters oppose airstrikes in the most
recent survey.) [From Politico]

[Note that Trump has consistently garnered significantly less that the
47% of support since before even he was elected.]

In case, it's still not clear, the Deutsche Wellen question has this
for a definitive answer:
Of course, the ruling elites of the U.S. aren't going to walk back
on their New American Century dream.

It would help you to read Trump's national security advisor
Gen. McMaster's lips to know that with near certainty, a first-strike
at the North's military facilities will be fait d'accompli at the
minimum. And you need to know too that I won't be unhappy at all if
my prediction turns out to be wrong.

lo yeeOn

McMaster thinks North Korea can't be stopped from attacking the US or
allies By Alex Lockie
http://www.businessinsider.com/hr-mcmaster-north-korea-war-inevitable-deterrence-2017-8

President Donald Trump's national security adviser made a startling
statement to ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" on Sunday.

When asked whether the US could tolerate a fully nuclear-capable North
Korea, Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster questioned how the military had dealt
with nuclear nations for decades.

"The classical deterrence theory, how does that apply to a regime like
the regime in North Korea?" McMaster said.

McMaster characterized North Korea as engaging in "unspeakable
brutality against its own people" and posing "a continuous threat to
its neighbors" - and now the US - with nuclear weapons. He also said
the country's leader, Kim Jong Un, would imprison and murder "anyone
who seems to oppose that regime, including members of his own family."

Trump's national security adviser fundamentally believing that North
Korea cannot be deterred could have massive policy implications.
Essentially, if the US's superior nuclear might couldn't cause North
Korea to back down, it would make sense to attack before it developed
full nuclear capability.

But McMaster's characterization of North Korea as a regime beyond the
pale of rationality also has some issues. To varying degrees, both the
Soviet Union and China engaged in similar brutality, threats, and
murder and oppression of dissidents.

In 1957, during the US and Soviet Union's heated arms race, the
Chinese leader Mao Zedong said: "I'm not afraid of nuclear war. There
are 2.7 billion people in the world; it doesn't matter if some are
killed. China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them
are killed, there are still 300 million people left. I'm not afraid of
anyone."

But nuclear war never broke out. Though the US sought to contain the
spread of communism during the Cold War, it never attacked China, even
as it built a nuclear arsenal.

Experts contacted by Business Insider have previously said Kim is
indeed a rational actor who can be expected to observe established
rules of deterrence.

The consensus among North Korea watchers is that Kim seeks nuclear
weapons for regime security, and while his newfound nuclear prowess
could strike a US city, the US's response would leave nothing left of
North Korea.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dw.com/en/does-the-us-have-to-accept-north-korea-as-a-nuclear-power/a-40045737
""The United States has 'accepted' that China, Russia, India and
Pakistan are nuclear states," said Baker, adding that in some ways the
US military already considers North Korea to be a "nuclear power."
"Militarily, the US could manage a nuclear North Korea through
traditional deterrence, rather than military action," added Baker. "But
from a political perspective, it is not clear whether the US will
'accept' North Korea's membership in the nuclear club."
...
"Dialogue is really the only way that is going to get us out of this
escalatory cycle," said Town from 38 North. "Sanctions play their role
and as North Korea demonstrates new capabilities, bolstering deterrence
capabilities is necessary. But pressure and isolation alone is not going
to change North Korea's belief that it needs a deterrence capability."
Up to now, the US has said that it is open to dialogue only if North
Korea is willing to abandon its nuclear program, an offer North Korea
rejects outright. To begin dialogue, expectations must be changed.
Town said that ideally the US would need to find a politically feasible
way to enter into exploratory talks without preconditions. "Only from
there will we really understand what is achievable and be able to design
a way forward." "
lo yeeOn
2017-08-18 23:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by lo yeeOn
When the US National Security Advisor is speaking of another country's
"unspeakable brutality against its own people", it's a rallying call
to arms.
If North Korea gives up their nukes and ICBMs, they are dead. They are
many corpses lying around to prove it, i.e., Saddam Hussein of Iraq,
Muammar Gaddafi of Libya,...
IF you believe that North Korea truly believe in such a line of
argument - which is reasonable, given what has happened to other small
countries around the world, then in a few days to about two weeks'
time, North Korea will respond militarily to a first strike from the
US military under the guise of its annual joint exercise with SK,
Japan, and other countries. (I believe that the UK and Australia will
also participate.) Furthermore, tens of thousands of US troops have
already been mobilized at the SK border to be ready for any human
waves from the North, the media has reported.

So what will be the result?

1) For certain, a large part of the North's nuclear and ballistic
missile programs will be destroyed.

2), For certain (if your logic is being followed by the North), there
will be military response that will cause fighting, to what degree we
don't know at this point, in the South.

3), if 2) is coming to pass, then the US will also bomb Pyongyang -
which the Trump administration has hinted, will be spared only if the
North's leadership does not do anything to retaliate militarily.

Note that China and Russia may be muttering some words about both
sides holding back (and the Chinese Foreign Minister has even sounded
stern), but those two countries won't do anything to help the North.

Asutralia's Kevin Rudd has recently said that China was ignorant in
thinking that the Trump administration was bluffing.

China, and even Russia, will be afraid, after this August, as North
Korea will be on its way out, having been wounded like this -
meaningful the way Washington has envisioned for it.

You keep saying what North Korea's position is. But the reality is
not about what the weaker side's position is. All the words from the
relevant people are telling us that the decision has been made and
what has been decided will be done. And North Korea will be in no
position to oppose it.

And after Steve Bannon patriotically warned the American people that
"there's no military solution here", the U.S. Joint Chiefs chairman
Gen. Dunford, along with Pentagon Chief Gen mattis and State Chief
Tillerson, re-iterated thus:

War will be horrific; but a nuclear North Korea will be unimaginable!

"what's unimaginable is allowing KJU (North Korean leader Kim Jong
Un) to develop ballistic missiles with a nuclear warhead that can
threaten the United States and continue to threaten the region."

Anyone with a modicum of English can see that there is no comparison
between "oh, horrible!" and "we won't let it happen!".

Ok, my friend, methinks that you've also not been listening. When the
United State's National Security Advisor speaks, even if you are far
away from Washington, D.C., you should put your ear to the ground and
listen, and listen good.

lo yeeOn
The only chance North Korea has is to keep pace with the nuke and ICBM
development, and never fall behind.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachments for anyone who might not have heard:

1) North Korea: Kevin Rudd says China thinks Donald Trump is bluffing,
urges 'grand bargain' to defuse nuclear standoff

By political correspondent Louise Yaxley Updated about 7 hours ago

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-14/north-korea-war-threat-growing-more-and-more-possible:-rudd/8803316

. . .

Mr Rudd said the Chinese view was that the United States would not
launch a unilateral strike against North Korea, but he said "the US
unilateral military option is by no means off the table".

"I think the Chinese deep calculus is that the United States would
never do it because of the high risk of a retaliatory military strike
then by the North Koreans against South Korea,"

"They say the US is all bluff, they will never do it, otherwise they
would be sacrificing South Korea and shattering their future alliance
with Seoul and possibly with Tokyo as well."

But he said the US would focus on the threat posed by North Korea to
the United States homeland and territories like Guam.

Mr Rudd has called for a "grand bargain" that the US and China could
agree on if there was enough diplomatic trust.

He said that would involve the US achieving its aim of seeing North
Korea give up its nuclear weapons and China getting a guarantee that
the North Korean regime's future would be secured, and potentially the
US removing or scaling back its troop presence in South Korea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

2) McMaster thinks North Korea can't be stopped from attacking the US
or allies By Alex Lockie
http://www.businessinsider.com/hr-mcmaster-north-korea-war-inevitable-deterrence-2017-8

President Donald Trump's national security adviser made a startling
statement to ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" on Sunday.

When asked whether the US could tolerate a fully nuclear-capable North
Korea, Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster questioned how the military had dealt
with nuclear nations for decades.

"The classical deterrence theory, how does that apply to a regime like
the regime in North Korea?" McMaster said.

McMaster characterized North Korea as engaging in "unspeakable
brutality against its own people" and posing "a continuous threat to
its neighbors" - and now the US - with nuclear weapons. He also said
the country's leader, Kim Jong Un, would imprison and murder "anyone
who seems to oppose that regime, including members of his own family."

Trump's national security adviser fundamentally believing that North
Korea cannot be deterred could have massive policy
implications. Essentially, if the US's superior nuclear might couldn't
cause North Korea to back down, it would make sense to attack before
it developed full nuclear capability.

But McMaster's characterization of North Korea as a regime beyond the
pale of rationality also has some issues. To varying degrees, both the
Soviet Union and China engaged in similar brutality, threats, and
murder and oppression of dissidents.

In 1957, during the US and Soviet Union's heated arms race, the
Chinese leader Mao Zedong said: "I'm not afraid of nuclear war. There
are 2.7 billion people in the world; it doesn't matter if some are
killed. China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them
are killed, there are still 300 million people left. I'm not afraid of
anyone."

But nuclear war never broke out. Though the US sought to contain the
spread of communism during the Cold War, it never attacked China, even
as it built a nuclear arsenal.

Experts contacted by Business Insider have previously said Kim is
indeed a rational actor who can be expected to observe established
rules of deterrence.

The consensus among North Korea watchers is that Kim seeks nuclear
weapons for regime security, and while his newfound nuclear prowess
could strike a US city, the US's response would leave nothing left of
North Korea.
lo yeeOn
2017-08-18 23:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by lo yeeOn
When the US National Security Advisor is speaking of another country's
"unspeakable brutality against its own people", it's a rallying call
to arms.
"...the US would need to find a politically feasible way to enter into
exploratory talks without preconditions. "
Who is really disagreeing?
Ah, my dear friend, you are not listening, are you?
1. My question was about entering into exploratory talks without
preconditions.
2. I agree that almost the whole world want North Korea to
denuclearize. As a matter of fact, I myself find the question of the
DW article missing the point. The issue is not whether "the US have
to accept North Korea as a nuclear power". Rather, it is how the US
could persuade by hook or by crook North Korea to denuclearize and
within what time frame. I believe Trump and Xi had agreed on a 3
year time frame and it was rejected by North Korea.
It doesn't matter what the world wants NK to do. All it matters is
what Washington wants. The eupehmism justification we've heard is
that famous line:

"If there's going to be a war to stop [Kim Jong Un], it will be over
there. If thousands die, they're going to die over there. They're
not going to die here. And He has told me that to my face,"

I'll let you figure out who said that and whether his words means
anything or not.
Post by lo yeeOn
Tons of relevant people have talked about denuclearization and
dismantling of the North's ballistic missile programs. You might
think that nothing has changed. But powerful people are goading Trump
ever more into a first strike, sparing Pyongyang - for now - if the
regime doesn't do anything foolish, meaning if its forces do not shoot
back.
What powerful people were goading Trump into a first strike? And for
what end?
Please read my other posts.
Post by lo yeeOn
And Joint Chiefs Chairman Dunford has just signed a document with his
Chinese counterpart that essentially is telling China not to do
anything foolish - which they euphemistically term "miscalculations" -
or they will be hurt too.
Sure, why not? In response, China also told both the US and North Korea
to scale back their rhetoric.
Meaningless gesture from China ...
Post by lo yeeOn
Finally, there is enough popular support for airstrikes of military
targets to convince Trump that this is his chance to render his due
to the neocons who want the deal done.
As a matter of fact, Trump has praised Kim for his 'wise' decision on
Guam. Don't think he would praise Kim if first strike is imminent.
Naive assessment. Please read Red Ridinghood.

Regards,

lo yeeOn
Post by lo yeeOn
Voters aren't more galvanized behind military action, according to
the poll. Last month, half of voters said they backed airstrikes
against military targets and suspected nuclear sites in North
Korea. But that is down slightly, to 47 percent, in the new
poll. (Thirty-five percent of voters oppose airstrikes in the most
recent survey.) [From Politico]
[Note that Trump has consistently garnered significantly less that the
47% of support since before even he was elected.]
In case, it's still not clear, the Deutsche Wellen question has this
Of course, the ruling elites of the U.S. aren't going to walk back
on their New American Century dream.
It would help you to read Trump's national security advisor
Gen. McMaster's lips to know that with near certainty, a first-strike
at the North's military facilities will be fait d'accompli at the
minimum. And you need to know too that I won't be unhappy at all if
my prediction turns out to be wrong.
lo yeeOn
McMaster thinks North Korea can't be stopped from attacking the US or
allies By Alex Lockie
http://www.businessinsider.com/hr-mcmaster-north-korea-war-inevitable-deterrence-2017-8
Post by lo yeeOn
President Donald Trump's national security adviser made a startling
statement to ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" on Sunday.
When asked whether the US could tolerate a fully nuclear-capable North
Korea, Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster questioned how the military had dealt
with nuclear nations for decades.
"The classical deterrence theory, how does that apply to a regime like
the regime in North Korea?" McMaster said.
McMaster characterized North Korea as engaging in "unspeakable
brutality against its own people" and posing "a continuous threat to
its neighbors" - and now the US - with nuclear weapons. He also said
the country's leader, Kim Jong Un, would imprison and murder "anyone
who seems to oppose that regime, including members of his own family."
Trump's national security adviser fundamentally believing that North
Korea cannot be deterred could have massive policy implications.
Essentially, if the US's superior nuclear might couldn't cause North
Korea to back down, it would make sense to attack before it developed
full nuclear capability.
But McMaster's characterization of North Korea as a regime beyond the
pale of rationality also has some issues. To varying degrees, both the
Soviet Union and China engaged in similar brutality, threats, and
murder and oppression of dissidents.
In 1957, during the US and Soviet Union's heated arms race, the
Chinese leader Mao Zedong said: "I'm not afraid of nuclear war. There
are 2.7 billion people in the world; it doesn't matter if some are
killed. China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them
are killed, there are still 300 million people left. I'm not afraid of
anyone."
But nuclear war never broke out. Though the US sought to contain the
spread of communism during the Cold War, it never attacked China, even
as it built a nuclear arsenal.
Experts contacted by Business Insider have previously said Kim is
indeed a rational actor who can be expected to observe established
rules of deterrence.
The consensus among North Korea watchers is that Kim seeks nuclear
weapons for regime security, and while his newfound nuclear prowess
could strike a US city, the US's response would leave nothing left of
North Korea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dw.com/en/does-the-us-have-to-accept-north-korea-as-a-nuclear-power/a-40045737
""The United States has 'accepted' that China, Russia, India and
Pakistan are nuclear states," said Baker, adding that in some ways the
US military already considers North Korea to be a "nuclear power."
"Militarily, the US could manage a nuclear North Korea through
traditional deterrence, rather than military action," added Baker. "But
from a political perspective, it is not clear whether the US will
'accept' North Korea's membership in the nuclear club."
...
"Dialogue is really the only way that is going to get us out of this
escalatory cycle," said Town from 38 North. "Sanctions play their role
and as North Korea demonstrates new capabilities, bolstering deterrence
capabilities is necessary. But pressure and isolation alone is not going
to change North Korea's belief that it needs a deterrence capability."
Up to now, the US has said that it is open to dialogue only if North
Korea is willing to abandon its nuclear program, an offer North Korea
rejects outright. To begin dialogue, expectations must be changed.
Town said that ideally the US would need to find a politically feasible
way to enter into exploratory talks without preconditions. "Only from
there will we really understand what is achievable and be able to design
a way forward." "
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